Thoughts on Bush.....carried to new topic

I think you are thinking of hybread gas/electric not fuel cell cars. the fuel cell uses no gas. I uses nitrogen, distrabution is a major problem at this time but there are a couple of folks who say that can get the motors down to gas powered motor in less than five years. We'll see.

Windy:

Actually I think the fuel cell uses hydrogen & oxygen to create electricity and heat. Theoretically then, water (H2O) could be the fuel. But that technology would be really expensive, so expect some kind of liquid hydrogen storage tank. And therein will be the problem -- remember the zepplin Hindenburg that burst into flames in Lakehurst NJ? ... filled with hydrogen gas. They are working on natural gas and methanol alternatives, but the technology isn't there yet either.

So if we thought GM 70s pickup trucks had gasoline tank fire hazards, wait until we try to store liquid hydrogen in a car. (Not to mention the infrastructure needed at the "filling station" and it's highly unlikely you'll have a liquid hydrogen tank at home.)

All in all, this technology holds great promise and I hope the techies figure it out.

Nitrogen ? are you sure ? Nitrogen is an inert gas, I don't see how you could get a chemical reaction to produce electricity from an inert gas, I'am aware
of the hybrid electrics, they use a gasoline engine and a electric motor in concert with each other. The fuel cell technology I have followed uses gasoline which is introduced into a fuel cell where a chemical reaction takes place and electricity is produced to drive the electric motor that powers the vehicle, their isn't a gasoline engine involved like in the hybrids, the only by product is water.
I will have to research the nitrogen angle, maybe I missed it, I follow all of this type of technology pretty close.

Jack

[mjlaupp]

Red,
If the fuel call technology uses gasoline then what happens to the carbon and nitrogen components when the gasoline is converted to water and power? Fuel cells run on hydrogen and oxygen.
MJL

You are all right, sorry I misspoke, hydrogen is the fuel of course.

red, check out a start up company in NJ, I think, saw a spot on it on TV about two weeks ago. They said they had all problems licked, they were just trying to get it into a smaller package.

[kempert]

I love the directions that these topics take. "Off Topic" is a great title. ;D

RE: What happens to the hydrogen and nitrogen:
this is the technology path fuel cells will follow. There are numerous problems with hydrogen, storage,acceptance by the public (Hindenburg fears) dispensing stations and on and on Gasoline is already here in abundance, This will be the way the fuel cell technology progresses.
Read report below on GASOLINE FUEL CELLS
Volume 2, issue #26 - 25-11-1997
A gasoline powered "fuel cell" electric engine for the automobile
Oct. 22, 1997 The U.S. Department of Energy and Arthur D. Little, in conjunction with Plug Power and the Energy Department's Los Alamos National Laboratory, have successfully demonstrated a first-ever gasoline-powered "fuel cell" electric engine for the automobile.
The new technology will allow the automotive industry to create new fleets of vehicles that can realise up to 80 miles per gallon (mpg) fuel economy with a near-zero exhaust emissions. This is the first time that fuel cell electricity has been generated by hydrogen from gasoline in a module that can be placed aboard a vehicle. The innovation heralds the next generation of engines to replace the internal combustion engine.
"Technology is increasingly important as the nation focuses on environmental protection and climate challenges," said Secretary of Energy Federico Pena. "Today's breakthrough is just one example of cutting-edge technology that could be commonplace in the future -- reducing greenhouse gases and improving the air we breathe."
In addition to the economic and ecological advantages, gasoline-powered fuel cell technology has been long sought by the industry as a practical means by which automakers can realistically produce a new breed of cars by using the current $ 200 billion oil and gasoline distribution pipeline and infrastructure (e.g. trucking, service stations, etc.).
"This invention will create new industries," said Charles R. LaMantia, CEO of Arthur D. Little. "The economic and market impact around this new capability is without precedence, and we are actively pursuing investors and venture capitalists in order to accelerate the pace at which we can bring this new technology to market," he stated.
Fuel cells generate electricity through an electro-chemical process. The cell converts the chemical energy of hydrogen and air (oxygen) into electrical energy. The by-products of this process are water vapour and heat. This system produces negligible amounts of sulphur and nitrogen oxides and less than half the amount of carbon dioxide greenhouse gas compared to internal combustion engines.
Because of the ecological and cost benefits of fuel cells, automakers have been scrambling to create a fuel cell technology to replace today's internal combustion engine. However, storing the hydrogen, the key ingredient, is not easily achievable in any practical or cost effective automotive system. By using gasoline in the on-board fuel processor, vehicles may now be able to house smaller gasoline tanks because of the increased efficiency of fuel cells.
"This discovery is important in that it also incorporates a fuel flexible design," said Jeffrey Bentley, inventor of this business concept and a vice president at Arthur D. Little. "Our fuel processor design is capable of converting a variety of hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline and ethanol into hydrogen. Ethanol is commonly made from corn and offers great promise in the powering of electric vehicles. The operating cost of an automobile will also dramatically be reduced," he added.
The discovery is the result of a five-year program sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy. The department partnered with Arthur D. Little, the project lead in advancing the development of on-board fuel processors and proving that fuel cell-based power systems are viable alternatives to traditional internal combustion engines. The State of Illinois and the Illinois Corn Marketing Board have also been partners in the development effort of creating new possibilities for cleaner and more efficient transportation for the 21st century.
The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV) is a co-operative research and development program between the federal government and the United States Council of Automotive Research (USCAR, a co-operative venture among Ford, General Motors and Chrysler). The goal of the PNGV is to develop technology that leads to a passenger automobile with 80 mpg fuel economy. The Department of Commerce leads the PNGV with the Department of Energy providing major support. Arthur D. Little and Plug Power work together to further develop this technology.