Trailmanor accident on rv.net message board

I came across this and thought I would share.
The link is
http://www.rv.net/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/CFB/1/Tid/206374/DoOnePage/Yes.cfm

Thanks for the interesting thread regarding the "tail wagging the dog".  Hank2 was using a Ford Ranger pickup with a standard hitch, towing a 2720SL which flipped him.  

I also use a standard hitch and have felt on occasion the kind of sway oscillation that could lead to trouble.  It's the sway where one excites it further by loosely correcting back and forth with the steering wheel.  Because of this I removed the spare tire off the rear and one of the two forward batteries.  This condition is now is improved.  I cautioned in a recent thread about adding weight at the ends of the trailer.

Sway is complex interaction between the two platforms, including suspensions and various moments of inertia -- and is not a black and white comparison of specifications such as wheelbase, weights, and towing ratings.  However, a lightweight tow vehicle such as a Ford Ranger using a standard hitch can make a non-ideal tow combination into real trouble.

Lighter vehicles especially need an equalizing hitch.  

[2swans]

:o wow. thanks for posting the thread on the TM accident. i plan to show it to dale when he returns home(half dead from being a CPA--he fell asleep at the wheel coming home last night--i plan to follow him home tonight)--anyway, i want to put this matter before you fellow TM owners. we have not yet gone on a long trip with our TM 2720sl--just to our close canyon and back--few miles.
this thread makes me wonder--do you think a toyota land cruiser, which weighs 5000# unloaded, has a 112.2 wheelbase poses a threat? it has towing pkg for 6000# and the engine is a straightline 6, 273.1 CID. we were told by our dealer a sway bar would probably not be necessary, too. we load our vehicle with lots of gear for fishing, backpacking, canoeing, biking. usually not all at the same time, but when going to south dakota, we do.
i would appreciate comments-many of you seem to be quite knowlegeable on this board.

sally swan

Sally,

Since you presently tow this combination and you're following guidelines, your best information is at hand:

How stable do you feel on the road?  
Have you practiced and are you confident with quick manuevering and emergency stopping?

Sally:


I don't know if you are using a weight distributing hitch, or not. Please forgive if I missed it.


If you are, it is easy to add a friction sway control to it, for about $100.00 . Or, there are a couple weight distributing hitches with a built-in sway control. Equal-i-zer, and Rease Duel-Cam, come to mind. (I used to use the Equal-i-zer myself).


Even if you do not need, and are not using, a weight distributing hitch, you can still add a friction sway control to your rig. You can get a draw-bar for your receiver with a small bracket and ball mounted to the side of your large trailer ball. Mount your friction sway control to your trailer tongue, and pop the end of it on that small ball.


If you do add, and use, a friction sway control, might want to un-hook it when you back into your campsite or driveway. If you turn too sharp with one, it could, (could, not would), bind up, and you could tear it up. So, maybe un-hook it, just in case. Won't take but a minute.
 

For about $100.00 think of it as cheap insurance. Better to have it, and not need it,,,,, then to need it, and not have it.


Mack

[2swans]

mack and jeober,
husband agrees, and we intend to get a sway-bar set-up. we'll go to our dealer to find out if our valley hitch is a weight distributing hitch. thank you both for the helpful comments. you're right--good insurance. happy trails, sally and dale ;D

[2swans]

and thanks, brian, for printing a link that may save at the least a ruined trip. 2swans :o

[Larry_Loo]

  Having read the posts about Hank2's accident on RVnet and those about the accident on this forum, it seems to me that many RVers feel that a mismatch between a heavy trailer being towed by a light vehicle might induce swaying. If this has become a commonly held conclusion, then it is incorrect. The size and weight of the towing vehicle has little to do with inducing swaying of a trailer. Swaying of a trailer results from its lateral instability on the road surface over which it is being towed. A well-designed and maintained large trailer that is properly loaded will not be susceptible to swaying when road conditions are good. On the other hand, a poorly designed or poorly loaded small trailer may be capable of severe swaying even under the best driving conditions.
  I can tell you from experience that this is true. Over 30 years ago the first trailer I ever towed was an 6' long box trailer that my wife and I rented to haul some of our belongings from California to Texas. Out in the countryside just a few miles down the road I felt the trailer wagging from side-to-side. This wagging worsened and I felt the rear wheels of our Buick station wagon moving side-to-side in rhythm with the trailer. I quickly learned that braking made it worse; fortunately I quickly discovered that taking my foot off the accelerator, downshifting into a lower gear and then accelerating stopped the swaying. We continued this way for hundreds of miles - until, somewhere in New Mexico the right wheel of the trailer came off. This occurred, fortunately, while we were driving slowly through a road construction detour. The mechanic dispatched by the national rental agency found all of the wheel's lugs sheared off! I suspected that the frequent bouts of swaying had put severe stresses on the lugs. On another occasion while towing a load of lumber in my own 6' box trailer, I experienced severe swaying that blew out one of its tires. After changing the tire, I drove home at a snail's pace to keep the swaying under control.
  I am not stating that the weight and power of the towing vehicle is not important. It is, but only in determining the extent of damages that can result from a trailer's swaying. That is, the heavier the vehicle the less likely it is that it will be pulled out of control and overturned by a swaying trailer. This is where the match between trailer and towing vehicle makes a difference where swaying is concerned.

There are many factors that can lead to a trailer's swaying: lack of auxiliary brakes on a trailer, improperly adjusted brakes, slippery road surfaces, poor tires, high winds, etc. In a well-maintained trailer the one other factor under the driver's control is the location of the trailer's center of gravity. When loading a trailer drivers should keep in mind that most of the load (and therefore its center of gravity) should be located forward of the trailer's axle. Exactly where this should be will differ from trailer to trailer. Suffice it to say, TrailManor recommends that the (trailer be loaded so that the) weight on the tongue should be approximately 10% of the trailer's gross weight. A TM trailer loaded like this will be laterally stable. As the center of gravity is moved farther back, less stability can result. Finally, if enough load is placed in the rear, the center of gravity can be moved rearward of the axles. This results in an extremely unstable towing condition, with swaying imminent the moment any lateral forces (wind gusts, going around a curve, etc) are exerted on the trailer. The reasons for the instability have to do with lengthening the moment-arm of the center of gravity as it moves to the rear. The greater the moment-arm of the center of gravity, the more its tires have to fight to maintain forward motion and minimize swaying.
  You can demonstrate this to yourself by taking a broomstick and tying a 1 pound weight on its far end. Your hand holding the near end of the stick simulates the hitch; your other hand farther up the stick simulates the trailer's wheels. As you swing the 1 pound weight slightly from side-to-side, judge how much force both hands must exert to resist the inertia of the weight. This is similar to an unstable, rearward center of gravity. Then untie the weight and retie it about 18 inches from the near end. Now straddle the weight with your hands and repeat the swinging of the weight from side-to-side. It should now be evident to you that your hands can much more easily control the side-to-side inertia of the weight. This is just like towing a stable trailer with a properly located center of gravity.
  If you tend to load up your TM with lots of heavy items, you might consider weighing your goods and purchasing a tongue scale. That way, you can at least assure yourself that as you maintain the proper proportion of weight on your hitch, you'll be keeping the trailer's center of gravity about where it should be. ;D

On the stability of a tow/towed package.  I have towed a variety of trailers over the years of varying configurations.  Never had a bad experience, although did experience incipient (Where is that spell checker?) sway tendancy.  I came away with the impression that my response on the steering wheel made a difference as to whether the motion was damped out or increased.  One question I wish to raise is that of the condition of the shocks on the towing vehicle.  The shocks are one of the mechanisms designed to remove energy from the system.  They should be maitained in good condition for towing.  Possibly a stiffer shock would be worth considering.  Anybody have thoughts or knowledge on this.

I am using a library computer to write this and my time is up.  So Bye.  

[Paul_Heuvelhorst]

Larry's explanation is 'right on' albeit lengthy.  He covers the subject accurately.

I would add 3 comments:
First, if you are going to err on the percentage of tongue weight (he said 10%) make it more.  It won't hurt to have 15%, for example, but it could have disasterous results if you drop significantly below 10%, as he stated.  :'(

Secondly, I added a friction sway bar to my 2619, more for piece of mind than necessity.  However, the wind effect from big rigs became a non-issue after I added the sway bar.  ;)

Finally, if you should EVER have your trailer begin to sway on you, the first thing to do is lightly apply the TRAILER BRAKE manually to slow down the entire rig... not the tow vehicle brake.  Normally, if the trailer is prone to sway on you, it will occur while you are going down a hill (as opposed to flat terrain), so downshift to keep your speed maintained to minimize using the tow vehicle's brakes and apply trailer brakes only if you detect any sway.  Then, bring the entire rig to a safe stop off the side of the road and inspect all your wheel lugs, reset your load (if it shifted) so that 10-15% of the total trailer weight rests on the tongue (hitch).   8)

I agree that you should err on the side of a heavier tongue weight.  There's a significant limit to this, though.  The worst thing this can do is lighten the front wheels!  To the point that your tongue weight stops depressing your rear springs, and starts acting as a lever raising the front wheels, tongue weight is good.   This is why equalizing bars can help prevent some events from triggering sway.

IMHO, there are different causes of sway, not just one.  For example, the wheelbase of your tow vehicle, the length of the trailer, # of trailer axles, proper alignment of the trailer axle (probably a bigger factor than realized), proper and even tire pressures on the trailer axles and tow vehicle axles, cross wind section (center of pressure) of the tow vehicle and trailer, etc.  I think there are treatises on the topic available all over the 'net.

I've done what seems to me to be a lot of towing and never had sway control.  (Hmmm...  I've lost trailer brakes a couple of times, had blowouts, frozen bearings, debris damage, panic stops, ice patches, blinding rain, gale crosswinds -- the usual.)  There are some situations I'd definitely either (a) not let myself or any of my friends get in the tow vehicle if it wasn't staying parked, or (b) go out and buy a sway control device.  It's good insurance.

Oh, and in some states, if a trooper sees your rig sway, you can be cited for a moving violation.

[oilspot]

I agree that there are many factors affecting sway control.  Here is what the TM factory rep (a close friend of mine) advised me about sway control for my 2720SL.

"No, I hadn't recommended the sway control.  I would try to get the cash back for that if I were you.  As far as I know, no other trailer company goes through the effort we do to make the trailer tow without sway.  We calculated the second moment of inertia about the trailer hitch to determine the placement of the axle to eliminate sway  (all of the sideways/rotational force of the trailer is taken up by the axle - not by your tow vehicle).  Most heavier trailers have the axle too far forward and create sway problems with this.  You can also create sway problems by storing your heavy stuff too far to the rear of the trailer (best to put that stuff to the front of the axle when practical).  Sway control  equipment just damps the sway so you don't feel that there is a problem.  HOWEVER, very short wheelbase cars can be pretty squirrely, but I don't think the pathfinder fits this category."

Just thought this would add some more fuel to the debate

[Chris_Bauer]

You guys should know by now that I am not a mechanical person and have learned quite a bit from this site and the experience of owning a TM for a year and a half.  We experienced sway from wind and trailers on our first trip out West.  This year I bought a camper shell for the pickup and it seems to me to be more stable then ever before.  We have had no wind problems or sway whatsoever.  For whatever it worth. . .  ;)

[Happytrails]

Funny someone should post something about an accident today.......about 3 hours ago, I was hit from behind while stopped by a guy who wasn't paying attention at about 35mph. My car slammed into the car in front of me as I was thrown back off the brake pedel, and her car hit the one in front of her.......sad part was that she is pregnant.  :-/ I sure hope she's ok. The guy who hit me was ok, as well as the lady in the very front car. But at any rate, now that I have a TM, I've got NOTHING to tow it with....   :'( Luckily tho, I wasn't hurt at all.....bent my tow hitch, and rear frame, and totaled my brush guard in the front, but it took the brunt of that, and for the most part, the front end's ok.....But the really sad part is the guy had NO insurance, and no money......he'll probably declair bankrupcy. My blazer's drivable, but I don't plan on it....dunno what's going to happen......at least I have uninsured motorists insurance.....so that will cover it, but I doubt I'll get that much outta it if they don't fix it and total it out.....   :-/

"Not-so-" Happytrails..........

[arknoah]

Sounds like you made it through the accident okay, though I'm sorry about the vehicle.   Insurance claims and police reports can really be a pain and take up a lot of your time.  

Of course, it's a lot worse if you get hurt at the same time, right?

Thinkin' about 'ya

[Larry_Loo]

Happytrails,
I'm sure that I can speak for all the participants of this forum by saying that we're all sorry to hear about your accident - and the damage that your Blazer sustained. I'm hoping that you can get it repaired satisfactorily or find another suitable vehicle to tow your TM.

We're glad that you weren't injured in the crash.

:(...I'm so sorry this happened.
Glad nobody was seriously hurt.
Red

[2swans]

happytrails,
glad you're ok :-/. let us hear what kind of tow vehicle you decide on. hang in there! :o 2swans

[Happytrails]

F.J. Yup, and yup, I'm feeling it today......lol But I'll be ok. The force of the impact shoved my seat back 10 inches, and I bent the steering wheel back 6 inches. After it was all over, I couldn't reach the pedels, and I was still holding onto the steering wheel. LOL I just looked up in Nada what it was worth, and seems it's only 1,000 less than I paid for it almost two years ago. Add the brush guard, and tow package, I should come out ok.......After talking to some people, I've heard NOT to go with any kinda jeep to tow it with as the transmissions won't hold up....cherokee or grand cherokee. If they total it out, I'll probably go with the small Yukon. The frame's bent, so they may total it....I dunno I'm hoping so though.

Happytrails......

I hope you're wrong about the Grand Cherokees since this is my tow vehicle  ;).  98,000 miles and still going, although admittedly there is only a couple thousand miles towing something.  I'll let you know next summer if I concur with the Jeeps tranmissions being thought of as fragile...  

[Happytrails]

Yes, the person that told me about that worked for a transmission shop for years, then I conferred with another friend of mine who knows a lot about towing, and is also a truck driver.......he said the same thing........It's not good to tow with a cherokee regular or grand.........

Happytrails......

;D
The Jeep is doing fine, but I have already mentioned that we are taxing the Jeep to the limit (5000 pound tow limit and the max loaded weight of our 3124 is supposed to be 5000 pounds)

On relatively flat surfaces the Jeep does fine (in terms of power) but on our week-end excursion last Friday, the mercury hit 93 with some hefty hills.  Needless to say, by the time I hit the top of the hills, my speed had dropped about 10 MPH and the engine temp had raised 10 degrees.  Keep in mind the "hefty" hills were in the river valley in Iowa (we're not talking the Rockies here!).  

Given the new information I had (about the Jeep's transmissions) and the fact that sometime we would like to go visit my wife's sister in Utah with the camper (which will require us to climb some "real" hills)  we purchased a new tow vehicle (2002 Chevy Avalanche) last week-end!

They are very nice (plus my towing cap went up to 7100 pounds!)  We are looking forward to riding "in luxury" to get there (wherever there happens to be!)

[Happytrails]

Good for you Dan, I'm sure you'll rather like the new tow vehicle over the jeep. If you were curious tho, please take the time to call any of your local transmission shops, I'm sure they'll tell ya the same about the jeeps. I'm glad I found this out now myself as I was considering a grand cherokee as a replacement. They're one of the best off road "off the shelf" vehicles you can buy, but they're not much for towing.........as an update, I'm still looking for a new vehicle, and my insurance adjuster went on vacation, so still haven't even gotten a check or anything yet.  :-/ I am hopeful tho, yesterday I found one EXACTLY like my old one minus a few things, that would have been covered I'm sure, and to top it off, even had a new motor in it.....the problem? It was only the 2.8l and not the 4.3l which is why the guy traded it in.....so he could tow his boat with it..........Oh well, search is still on............lol

Happytrails.......

Yeah - The Jeep had a 4.0l (6 cylinder).  While it could get the job done, I was starting to get more uncomfortable with the strain I was putting on it when climbing hills.  This new vehicle will give me peace of mind as well as a better ride.

The Avalanche has a 5.3l which gives it that extra edge for climbing hills.  Keep in mind I was towing the 3124 and a smaller model might have been more appropriate for the Jeep.  

Good luck on your search for a tow vehicle...

[Happytrails]

Well, finally heard today on that, of course the adjuster tried to "adjust me" out of almost $2,000.00, >:( But I went to two car lots and searched the local autotrader, and showed him 9+ vehicles all right in where he really did need to be at. One of the things I really liked about my blazer was it had a brush guard on the front that made it look really good. Well, I located one that was 1 year younger than mine, with the brush guard, and it had a tow package  :D I told him about it, and he's going to get with them about it and try and work something out tomorrow!  ;D Wish me luck! (I will have to upgrade the tow package from a class 2 to a class 3 since the toungue weight of my TM's close to 450lbs.)  :-/ But I still like it, it's pretty nice looking..........

Happytrails........

:) GOOD FOR YOU HAPPY T. !!
Red

Legally, dealers can sell you anything--even if your vehicle isn't able to carry the weight of the trailer/camper!  Trust me, I went to court after nearly getting killed in Death Valley when a dealer lied and overloaded my truck by about 1,500 pounds.  

Anyway, yes, you do need a sway bar, and probably lift bars too, towing your trailer, dry weight or fully loaded.

Happy trails!

Joan

[efelker]

Happy:

Real sorry to hear about the accident -- on the plus side is the fact that no serious bodily harm occurred.  Granted, the old Blazer has far more than a bruised ego, but nothing there that a ringing cash register can't fix.  Another one of those events that make you feel truly blessed and appreciate life.

On to the basic gist of this thread -- Larry, Paul, Jon, & Oilspot are right on.  Sway is all about physics (remember the class in HS that bored you to tears) and moments of inertias.  The TV plays a role, but rather minor.  It's really about the loads, and their locations in relation to each other.  

I was driving down I-95 in the vicinity of Fredricksburg VA.  There was a Ford F-350 with a crew cab (so it had a wheelbase of about a million miles) pulling a U-haul.  No doubt the person that loaded the trailer had no idea about sway because the trailer was all over the road behind the Ford.  They must have had all the load positioned behind the trailer axle.  The truck was obviously more than capable of towing the load, but the sway was the result of poor loading -- not tow capabilities.  I'm an aircraft maintenance officer and we see the same thing happen with control surface oscillations.  And just as the thread indicates, the more you do to try to correct it, the worse it becomes (same thing with acft).  So the moral is be really meticulous about how and where you position the loads in relation to the trail axle and the tongue weight.

On a lighter note, Happy -- when the TM sitting in your yard starts going into trailer ball withdrawl (awaiting your new TV), give a holler before the For Sale sign goes on it.