TM Towing at 12,000 feet and Summer Snow!

[RockyMtnRay]

Some pics here of my crossing of the Continental Divide on June 22, 2004 via Loveland Pass on US Hwy 6 (the elevation of the pass is actually at 11,991 feet but who quibbles over 9 feet at that altitude? ).

A bit of background. The day before (ironically the 1st day of summer) an intense and very cold "upper air disturbance" had passed over Colorado bringing a lot of precipitation to the mountains. I was camping at Dillon Lake (elev 9000 feet) and had to hole up in the TM due to high winds and ice cold rain (about 35 degrees most of the day). I noticed that every so often during the day there was even some snow mixed with the rain! When the storm partially cleared in late afternoon, I discovered the snow level had been only about 500 feet above me...the mountain sides and trees were just plastered with snow above 9500 feet.

Later I talked to some neighboring campers...they told me they'd gone up on Loveland Pass and encountered severe blizzard conditions...temperatures in the mid 20s, heavy snowfall in 30 to 40 mph winds, snow and icepacked roads, etc. After about a quarter hour of throwing "summer snowballs" they got too cold the and came back down. Shortly after they left the top, the Colo Dept of Transportation (CDOT) closed the road for a few hours due to the ice and snowpack and whiteout conditions.

Now, remember, I'm talking about a 1st day of summer storm here. The next morning (June 22nd) the sky was clear and I could see the high peaks were just gorgeously snow covered. Since this was my go-home day, I decided to make the trip via US 6 over Loveland instead of the usual route through the Eisenhower tunnels on Interstate 70. But being somewhat cautious about things, I also decided to time my crossing of the pass until late morning so that there would be enough time for the summer sun to melt off at least most of the ice and snow on the road.

So, without further ado, here's a pic I took of my rig at almost the top of the pass at around 11 am. The ridge above the road is at about 13,000 feet; the mountain in the far background is Torreys Peak, one of Colorado's 14ers (14,000 foot mountains). As you can see, the road was happily snow free but the mountain sides still had a nice coating.
http://www.rockymtnray.us/images_general/trailmanor/loveland_pass_rig@top_062204b.jpg

This is the "Roof of the Rockies" view looking north across the crest of the pass (and the obligatory TM close-up).
http://www.rockymtnray.us/images_general/trailmanor/loveland_pass_tm_view_north_062204a.jpg

And finally, here is my "comin' down the mountain" pic. This is a true "point and shoot" photo...it was taken about a half mile and 500 vertical feet below the top while rolling at about 30 mph...until this point on the descent I'd been much too busy driving to even think about grabbing the camera!

The highway waaaay down below me is Interstate 70 just below the Eisenhower Tunnels (at about 10,500 feet here)...for a sense of proportion here, if you look real close you can see a semi going up the westbound lanes (it's the itty-bitty white object). Above the Interstate is the Loveland Basin ski area...at the photo location I'm actually higher than most of the ski area. The road I'm on (US 6) descends from the photo location to join the Interstate in just three and a half miles with a grade of 6 to 7 percent and 4 hairpin switchbacks. You might also notice the narrow shoulder and total lack of guardrail on the uphill lane...beyond that pavement edge is a 500 foot nearly vertical drop. And be sure to check the rear-view mirror...you can see my TM happily rolling along behind me and the sharp curve I'd just negotiated. For the about the first mile below the pass, the highway (as you can see in the mirror) is really just a narrow shelf on the mountainside. http://www.rockymtnray.us/images_general/trailmanor/loveland_pass_view_i70_062204a.jpg

A few comments about this pass and its approaches. The climb on both sides is a fairly steady 6 to 7 percent grade; coming up the east side the final ascent above the Interstate is 4 miles (but this follows about 12 miles of 5% to 6% grades on the Interstate itself); the climb from the west side is 8 miles. Both sides have several hairpin 10 mph switchback corners...it takes a lot of power to get back up to the 30 mph speedlimit when you come out of those turns. Folks who tow TMs with minivans should not attempt this pass!

Both sides have several miles with 500 to 1000 foot dropoffs below the road; neither side has much in the way of guardrails so those with a fear of heights should probably not take this route.

The pass is usually snowpacked and icy until late April...and it can rapidly become so in almost any summer storm (and for up to several hours after a summer storm). Summer crossings should therefore be planned for mid morning; by afternoon severe thunderstorms with intense and frequent lightening are an almost daily occurrence. Most storms drop snow on the road instead of rain...even in mid summer.

Oh and one last thing...because CDOT normally prohibits hazardous cargo (e.g. gasoline tankers) from going through the Eisenhower Tunnels, this road is actually the hazardous cargo route over the Divide. (Only in winter when this pass is closed by avalanches (a common situation after most winter storms) does CDOT allow hazardous cargo through the tunnels.) Hence, meeting at least one gasoline tanker somewhere along this route is common. :eek:

So, out of curiousity, what do y'all think...how many can't wait to give this route a try and how many would never even think about doing it?

[Bill]

Can't wait! As you and John Denver both said, this is "Almost heaven" - although for some obscure reason he was talking about West Virginia when he said it.

I'll take the TM over the pass this summer if I can arrange it. My guess, though, is that my wife will walk along I-70, through the tunnels, and meet me on the other side.

Thanks for the pix - I didn't know what I was missing by staying on the Interstate.

Bill

[fcatwo]

Thanks for sharing that with us Ray. It's good to know it's there but we'll follow your advice about not trying to get up there with a marginal tow vehicle. I don't recall seeing those altitudes when we had the 172 and I certainly won't try it with the Odyssey and 2619.

Frank

[RockyMtnRay]

Thanks for sharing that with us Ray.

Most welcome!
It's good to know it's there but we'll follow your advice about not trying to get up there with a marginal tow vehicle. I don't recall seeing those altitudes when we had the 172 and I certainly won't try it with the Odyssey and 2619.


Presuming you were referring to a Cessna 172...I too am a pilot and your mention brings up the subject of density altitude (http://wahiduddin.net/calc/density_altitude.htm) and its effect on engine performance. If you plug the typical summer day numbers (temperature 60 degrees, altimeter 30.00, dew point 35, altitude 12,000) for the top of this pass into this Density Altitude Calculator (http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm), it shows the density altitude (for the non-pilots that's basically the effective altitude given temperature and humidity effects) is 14,770...or about the service ceiling of most models of the 172. In practical terms, it means that most light aircraft simply can't cross most Colorado passes on a summer day. However, during my climbs of various 14ers I actually have seen a few light aircraft fly below me through the passes (maybe 500 to 1000 feet above the terrain) very early in the morning when the air temperature was in the 30s. It's really strange to be standing on solid ground and waving down at the people in the airplanes. :new_shock Life truly is different here on "Planet Colorado". :D

Good decision vis-a-vis the Oddy. Using Engineer Shelquist's Engine Tuner's Calculator (http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp_dp.htm) and plugging in the above numbers, it would appear that you would have only about 60% of your sea level power available...or about 180 ft-lbs with the Oddy's engine revving at a pretty high 4500 RPM. That's not a whole lot of torque to move a loaded van and trailer up 6% grades. Probably could do it but you'd likely have to have the engine screaming in 1st gear for miles and the tranny & engine would likely be really hot by the time you got to the top. :eek:

[fcatwo]

A double thank's for adding your last post above to the high-altitude info you've posted elsewhere. I've often thought the rest of us should be getting college credits for learning (or relearning) the info you, Denny-A, Bill and others post to TMOP.

My flying was recreational only and ended about 15 years ago when the novelty wore off and I got tired of stopping by the airport every couple of days during our long Alaska winters to clear the snow off the 172's wings. I'm guessing your flying is not only current but professional - like Continental out of Denver.

On taking our rig up where you go: I was thinking about "getting it back down" the whole time I was reading your vivid description of going up. I'd want an ejection-seat and parachute before taking any GCWR maxed-out combination up to an area like that. You have the equipment to do it safely.

Frank

[RockyMtnRay]

A double thank's for adding your last post above to the high-altitude info you've posted elsewhere. I've often thought the rest of us should be getting college credits for learning (or relearning) the info you, Denny-A, Bill and others post to TMOP.

Most welcome and thanks for the praise...it's really good to know that it's being appreciated.

My flying was recreational only and ended about 15 years ago when the novelty wore off and I got tired of stopping by the airport every couple of days during our long Alaska winters to clear the snow off the 172's wings. I'm guessing your flying is not only current but professional - like Continental out of Denver.

Err, no, not a professional pilot...but really do appreciate the indirect compliment! I do have a Commercial pilot's license (Single Engine Land with Instrument endorsement) and have around 500 hours of flying under my belt. Last time I flew was about 14 years ago...about the time I retired from the Air Force and started my business as a self-employed business software developer and database designer/administrator. No time (or spare money) for flying during those business building years...and now that I have some time/money, I'd much rather travel by truck or motorcycle here in Colorado.

Although I wasn't a rated USAF pilot, I was quite active in a variety of military Aero or Flying Clubs (at one time or another I was in Army and Navy as well as Air Force clubs). One of my friends managed a club here in Colorado and basically wrote the manual on mountain flying for Aero Club members...that's where I learned all about the hows and dangers of mountain flying. During the 80s I did a lot of my official travel in high performance singles (Mooneys, Arrows, Cardinals, etc.)...basically I aimed to fly myself on any official trip under about 800 miles. I empathize with your Alaskan comment...for two years I flew a Piper Warrior around Iceland...at least we could stick the plane in one of the hangars so didn't have the snow on the wings issue. Had everything else though...crappy weather, high winds...and magnificent terrain.

So, for a variety of reasons, it seemed I kept being appointed as the Safety Officer. Hence I got real familiar with all the important considerations...including density altitude and weights/balances. Never imagined I'd be applying the concepts in these topics to pulling a trailer but here am I doing just that.

On taking our rig up where you go: I was thinking about "getting it back down" the whole time I was reading your vivid description of going up. I'd want an ejection-seat and parachute before taking any GCWR maxed-out combination up to an area like that. You have the equipment to do it safely.

Glad you mentioned that. Yeah, the coming-down part can definitely be an attention-getter and having equipment that's substantially more capable than the minimum is really helpful when things don't go quite right.

For instance, during the very descent that I photographed above, my Prodigy brake controller's display was intermittantly flashing "N.C." meaning it was detecting a loss of connection to the trailer's brakes (I later found that the wires to the rightside trailer brake had been smooshed/broken, probably by extreme suspension movement on a bumpy road). While that could have been a real :eek: I had no problems at all controlling speed using mostly engine braking with a little bit of wheel braking before and during the ultra tight corners (I was still getting braking from the leftside trailer brake). There's where it was really great having a sizable engine (mine is 4.7L) and low axle gearing (mine is 3.91) for strong engine braking...and the heavier duty brakes and longer wheelbase of a half ton truck. Back when I towed with the lighter and much shorter wheelbase Cherokee, I always had a sense there wasn't a real large margin of control left on steep and sharply curving descents. But with the Tundra, even steep descents with hairpin switchbacks are not all worrisome.

[paul street]

Having never traversed the Rockies at this latitude, have always taken the southern routes, what should I expect on a planned return home?

In December we will be going east via 10- and 40. But, returning to the west coast, am 'thinking' of coming back via 80.

My question is ... which way is the worse ... eastbound ... or westbound?

My tow vehicle is a 2002 Jeep v6 with aftermarket tow package installed; cooler, hitch ... but nothing on rear end ratio. TM is 2720sl.

Should I try and avoid the higher altitudes on 80 by going south and skirting around it ... or plunge ahead? Heretofore my 'package' has done pretty well with the grades around Bishop, California and the high sierra grades around Carson City, Nevada.

Thanks
Paul :new_newbi

[RockyMtnRay]

Having never traversed the Rockies at this latitude, have always taken the southern routes, what should I expect on a planned return home?

In December we will be going east via 10- and 40. But, returning to the west coast, am 'thinking' of coming back via 80.

My question is ... which way is the worse ... eastbound ... or westbound?

My tow vehicle is a 2002 Jeep v6 with aftermarket tow package installed; cooler, hitch ... but nothing on rear end ratio. TM is 2720sl.

Should I try and avoid the higher altitudes on 80 by going south and skirting around it ... or plunge ahead? Heretofore my 'package' has done pretty well with the grades around Bishop, California and the high sierra grades around Carson City, Nevada.

Thanks
Paul :new_newbi

I-80 and I-40 are roughly equivalent in maximum altitudes/grades, etc., with I-80 perhaps being a little worse in Utah and parts of Wyoming.

I-40 is at its highest and steepest around Flagstaff AZ (about 7000 feet) and again around Gallup, NM (Continental Divide at roughly 5000 feet) but I don't recall anything worse than what you're used to around Carson City (again around 7000 feet if memory serves me).

I-80 has its biggest grades in the Wahsatch mountains just east of Salt Lake but maximum altitudes are in the 7500 foot range. I-80 rises to a little over 8000 a couple of times across Wyoming but it's basically just rolling hills...no real mountains except for a short stretch just west of Cheyenne. I-80 is very popular with truckers because it is a fairly easy passage across the Rockies. I would NOT try to tow a TM with your Jeep over I-80 in the winter though...both Wyoming and Utah have ferocious winter blizzards that sometimes close that road for multiple days plus the cross winds in Wyoming are in the 50 to 70 mph range pretty regularly during the winter.

I-70 through Colorado is the one you want to avoid if you are concerned about mountain grades and high altitudes. Truckers hate I-70 because it's so challenging...there's very little through truck traffic on it because it's so hard on (and for) trucks. Plus I-70 is frequently very icy/snowpacked at the higher elevations during the winter...it would be very challenging to try tow your TM across the mountains on this route.

Recommendation: If you're going east in December, do it over the southerly routes (I-10 or I-40). Even I-40 can get pretty nasty around Flagstaff and Gallup in the wintertime. If you're returning west this winter, don't try I-80 either...it would be OK for towing from about mid-April onward.

I-70 crosses Vail Pass at 10,600 and goes under the Continental Divide via the 1.1 mile long Eisenhower tunnels...but the tunnel entrances are at 11,100. That 3.7L V6 engine in your Liberty will be taxed to the maximum by the combination of these altitudes and the 8 to 10 mile long 7% grades on both sides of these high points. Add in ice and snowpack and you could easily have a very traumatic trip. The main reason I traded a Jeep Cherokee for my Tundra was the Cherokee (with a bigger, more powerful engine than the Liberty) was just not powerful enough to adequately tow a 2720SL on I-70. Keep one thought in mind...when it comes to road elevations, "high Sierra" basically equals "Colorado foothills".

[paul street]

That's basically the impression I have formed here lately. Had read another posting wherein the person referred to some of the passes being at or near 11,000 ft. Something about a tunnel named EISENHOWER. Could not find that on the map we have.

But, OTOH, some of the High Sierra passes can be as treacherous as you mentioned ... maybe not as high ... but just as bad. Right now for instance, Hwy 50 has been closed for, believe the paper said this morning, seven (7) days; not only due to the storm presently pounding us but also because of the recent Kyburz fires.

50 over Echo ain't no picnic either. And then if you really want an experience, go over Sonora Pass. Monitor is not that bad ... but Sonora is another story. Used, as CHP, patrol those and really earned my pay in those days.

Thanks for the info. May take another look at the return route.
Paul :new_newbi

[RockyMtnRay]

That's basically the impression I have formed here lately. Had read another posting wherein the person referred to some of the passes being at or near 11,000 ft. Something about a tunnel named EISENHOWER. Could not find that on the map we have.


Here's the tunnel's web page (http://www.dot.state.co.us/Eisenhower/description.asp)

The claim to be the highest vehicular tunnel in the world is not quite right...the Salang tunnel under the Hindu Kush Mountains in Afghanistan is a little higher (11,300)...but only by some 150 feet. The Salang is not paved and is pretty primitive. The dual bores of the Eisenhower tunnels provide 2 Interstate highway lanes in each direction. :)

I was wrong about the length...at 1.7 miles long it's quite a bit longer than I thought.

Construction was quite an engineering feat...5 years for the first bore, 4 years for the second...it's not easy doing construction at over 2 miles above sea level.

It's not just a couple of holes through the rock either...it has its own fire/safety/rescue teams and maintainers...it takes 52 people to keep it running.

24 Hr/day Tunnel traffic cam (http://www.cotrip.org/atis/web.CCTVMarshal?CCTV=20000&mode=html)

[Bill]

Having never traversed the Rockies at this latitude, have always taken the southern routes, what should I expect on a planned return home? My tow vehicle is a 2002 Jeep v6 with aftermarket tow package installed; cooler, hitch ... but nothing on rear end ratio. TM is 2720sl. Oh my. Last spring, my wife and I took I-70 west-to-east across Colorado. Loveland Pass, Vail area (we went under Vail Pass in the Eisenhower tunnel), the whole thing. It was gorgeous, and I thought it was a lot of fun - but my tow vehicle was not pleased. For the record, that's a Ford Explorer, 4.6L V-8, with the factory tow package, including 3.73 rear end and 5-speed automatic, in front of a 2720SL. I was VERY surprised at the limited performance of the duo. You can look over my post if you like at
http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13325#post13325

Same trailer, smaller (V-6) engine in the tow vehicle, low-numeric-ratio rear end? I'd be more than a little nervous. And think about braking, too. The miles-long, STEEP downgrades out of the peaks and eventually into the Denver area are amazing - and scary. We watched a truck burn up his brakes - wow, what smoke! - and hit the Runaway Truck Lane somewhere in there.

Your observation about the High Sierra passes being just as steep but maybe not as high suggests that you don't fully appreciate the effect that altitude (i.e., LACK OF AIR!) has on engine horsepower. I've done the Sierra passes as well, and they are steep and twisty and treacherous and beautiful, as you say. But the effect on the engine is less. Ray did a nice post on the effects of altitude, probably in conjunction with mine, about 6 months ago. Check 'em out!

If you decide to do this, please post your impressions when you are done!

Bill

[RockyMtnRay]

Oh my. Last spring, my wife and I took I-70 west-to-east across Colorado. Loveland Pass, Vail area (we went under Vail Pass in the Eisenhower tunnel), the whole thing. It was gorgeous, and I thought it was a lot of fun - but my tow vehicle was not pleased. For the record, that's a Ford Explorer, 4.6L V-8, with the factory tow package, including 3.73 rear end, in front of a 2720SL. I was VERY surprised at the limited performance of the duo. You can look up my post if you like - it would have been in late May, I think.

Just to keep the record straight, by staying on I-70 you went over Vail Pass (10,600...between Vail and Copper Mountain)...and basically under Loveland Pass by taking the Eisenhower Tunnels. Loveland Pass (as pictured above) is not on I-70 but rather is on US. Highway 6. But don't feel bad...lots of people get a bit confused by the multiplicity of high mountain crossings in the Summit County area of Colorado.

Same trailer, smaller (V-6) engine in the tow vehicle, low-numeric-ratio rear end? I'd be more than a little nervous. And think about braking, too. The miles-long, STEEP downgrades out of the peaks and eventually into the Denver area are amazing - and scary. We watched a truck burn up his brakes - wow, what smoke! - and hit the Runaway Truck Lane somewhere in there.

Actually, there are multiple Runaway Truck Lanes in this stretch of I-70...including one that's barely 2 miles out of Denver. Bill is not at all overstating the steepness of the final eastbound descent into Denver...this is about seven miles of 6 and 7 percent grades and is very deceptive because you can see the flat Colorado plains just ahead. Runaway trucks are so common (several times a month) that the Colorado DOT has erected several huge (and I do mean HUGE) signs at the beginning of and throughout this final descent. And they aren't in the usual bureaucratese either....

The first one is sorta mild mannered and reads something like "TRUCKERS! Are your brakes cool and adjusted? 11 miles of steep grades and sharp curves ahead!"

The next one is partway into the descent and reads something like: "TRUCKERS!!!! STAY GEARED DOWN!!!! 6 MORE MILES OF STEEP GRADES AND SHARP CURVES!!!" This sign is so big it crosses all three lanes and has a bunch of flashing lights.

Finally, "TRUCKERS!!!!! YOU ARE NOT DOWN YET!!! STAY GEARED DOWN!!!! 2 MORE MILES OF SHARP CURVES AND STEEP GRADES!" Again, so big it crosses all three lanes and also has lots of flashing lights.

Despite the signs and a 35 mph truck speed limit, a remarkable number of semis badly overheat their brakes (CLOUDS of smoke from literally red hot drums and discs) and have to take the Runaway Truck Lane where they're eventually stopped by a very deep layer of soft gravel and about 200 feet of crash barriers. Over the years I've concluded that if a loaded semi doesn't have engine brakes and the driver doesn't have mountain experience, it's probably going to lose its brakes on this descent.

Even with ordinary cars & SUVs, you can really tell who's a seasoned Colorado driver and who's a flatland visitor by how they descend. At the top of the first grade on the final descent (which starts as about 2 miles of fairly straight road), the Coloradans somewhat comply with the drop in speed limit from 65 to 55...and they frequently use light touches of their brakes to keep their speed down. By contrast, the flatlanders (midwesterners are the worst) see the plains in the distance and actually speed up to around 70 or 75. And shortly thereafter the the "let's get moving, we're finally out of these damned mountains" attitude rapidly changes to "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeKKKKKKKKKKK" :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: as they realize their speed is waaaaaayyyyy too fast and normal braking is not slowing them down. Good thing a lot of modern cars have ABS because I see almost total wheel lockup pretty regularly. Lots of panic braking. Lots.

As for trailering a TM down...I put my tranny in 2nd gear at the top and intermittantly use the wheel brakes as needed to keep the speed under 55. When I do use the brakes, I use them firmly to drop my speed by about 10 mph...then I get back off them so they have time to cool before I hit them again. The worst thing you can do is constant light to moderate braking...it will rapidly heat the drums and they won't have time to cool. The cardinal rule of mountain descents is "hot brakes fail".

[Bill]

Yup, we have a somewhat blurry picture the place Ray refers to - where the road levels out a bit, before the last roller-coaster plunge down to Denver. One of the huge signs at that point says "TRUCKERS - DON'T BE FOOLED! MILES OF STEEP DOWNGRADE STILL REMAINS!" Pretty fair warning - no mild bureaucrat-ese here. Climbing back up that grade (east-to-west) would be an hours-long challenge, I think.

Loveland Pass? Vail Pass? Eisenhower Tunnel? Sorry, I keep mixing up those two passes. Either way, the experience and the scenery were unequalled.

Bill

[RockyMtnRay]

Yup, we have a somewhat blurry picture the place Ray refers to - where the road levels out a bit, before the last roller-coaster plunge down to Denver. One of the huge signs at that point says "TRUCKERS - DON'T BE FOOLED! MILES OF STEEP DOWNGRADE STILL REMAINS!" Pretty fair warning - no mild bureaucrat-ese here.
Dang, your memory is better than mine...I forgot that "DON'T BE FOOLED! " part. Clearly CDOT is doing all it can to get the trucker's attention though.

Climbing back up that grade (east-to-west) would be an hours-long challenge, I think.

Yep, this is one that separates out the men from the boys, tow vehicles wise. A big part of the problem is that it's low enough (about 6000 to 7800 feet) to be pretty darn warm (often well into the 90s) on a hot summer afternoon so you get to add engine and transmission overheating to the other challenges of a 6% grade.

I tried these I-70 grades just one time when I was towing with my Jeep. The Jeep had a pretty fair engine (4.0L, 220 ft-lbs of torque, 195 HP) and 5 speed manual tranny. But it didn't come with the tow package and had a 3.07 axle ratio. Hence it was struggling to even hold 30 to 35 mph on this first climb out of Denver while I watched the temperature gauge steadily climb to around 230 degrees. :eek: Up higher, I still couldn't do much over 35 to 40 but at least the temperature gauge stayed under 210.

Whole 'nother story with my Tundra. Since it now has about 350 ft-lbs of torque after installing the JBA headers and low restriction Gibson muffler...and it has 3.91 gears...I can climb this grade at 65+ mph with my TM rolling along behind me. :biggrinbo My only remaining challenge is that I can't quite go all the way up without the tranny downshifting to 2nd so, although the engine temp gauge never budges, the tranny temp goes up to about 195 :( So I'm now considering changing the axle gears to get a 4.30 ratio...that oughta let me stay in 3rd (Drive) all the way up. :D