SW6DE Hot Water Heater Operation

[RottieMom]

Sorry for asking so many dumb questions, I'll get past being a newbie in the near future. In the meantime...

Can someone help me out with the steps to follow for using the Suburban SW6DE (Direct Spark & Elec) hot water heater? I'd like to understand what steps to follow if using propane only, or electric only, or both propane and electricity.

I've read the operation manual, but am still a bit confused about steps and sequence. I know the first thing I'm supposed to do is once I'm hooked up to water (either city connection or fresh water tank & pump), I need to open the hot water faucets and fill the Hot Water heater tank.

Thanks for any instructions you can provide.

[MisterP]

Do you have the manual? Here is one if you need it.

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7979&d=1353188863

[RottieMom]

Yep, I have the manual and find it a bit confusing. Was hoping someone could provide simple step-by-step instructions depending on whether you're using propane, electricity or both.

[Redtail Cruiser]

Sorry for asking so many dumb questions, I'll get past being a newbie in the near future. In the meantime...

Can someone help me out with the steps to follow for using the Suburban SW6DE (Direct Spark & Elec) hot water heater? I'd like to understand what steps to follow if using propane only, or electric only, or both propane and electricity.

I've read the operation manual, but am still a bit confused about steps and sequence. I know the first thing I'm supposed to do is once I'm hooked up to water (either city connection or fresh water tank & pump), I need to open the hot water faucets and fill the Hot Water heater tank.

Thanks for any instructions you can provide.


Hi Cindy,

After you have purged all of the air out and the hot water tank is ready, turn on your propane tank. Then turn on the hot water for propane operation by flipping the switch on the panel on the front of the sink. There is an indicator light next to the switch which should come on. When the air is purged out of the propane tube,the water heater will ignite and then the indicator light will go out.

To operate on 120 volt power. When the trailer is plugged in, open the access door to the water heater compartment. In the lower lefthand corner of that compartment is a small black rocker switch. To operate the hot water heater on 120 volt turn that switch on. You can run them both at the same time or seperately.

Hope this helps...

[RottieMom]

Yes! Thank you Tim. I knew it couldn't be that complicated. :)

[Bill]

There are a couple of tutorials in the Technical Library (TM Info You Won't Find Anywhere Else) that may help, too. One has to do with the water heater itself, the other with general operation of the propane systems.

Bill

[davlin]

Cindy,

It's very important to remember that when you've finished using the 120vac (electric) mode of the water heater you need to turn the black toggle switch back to "OFF." If you forget to do this, it's quite possible at some future date to have the electric heating element in the water heater on with no water in the tank. This will burn out the element.

It would be nice if there was a light on the control panel that indicated that the electric element was on, but alas, there is not.

Dave

[RottieMom]

Great, thx all. The advice is much appreciated!

[moaboy]

Yes I wish there were a big red light. I'm sure one of our electrical whizz bangs could add one easily. In cars they call them "idiot" lights, that is what I need...

[scrubjaysnest]

Yes I wish there were a big red light. I'm sure one of our electrical whizz bangs could add one easily. In cars they call them "idiot" lights, that is what I need...
It's a simple mod that I plan to do in the very near future. I have all the parts with us; just need to get over this busted foot.

[TM Pilot]

Scrubjaysnest,

Did you ever do this mod?

Bruce

[Padgett]

Is on my to-do list but not very high. Hard part seems to be getting to the switch wiring. Can you reach from under the sink ?

[Bill]

Is this the mod you all are talking about?

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/album.php?albumid=74

Or are you thinking about a simple switch and pilot light on the kitchen apron inside? While this is better than nothing, the problem with a warning light is that you have only a very few seconds to react if you find that power is on before you fill the water heater. The relay-activated approach takes care of that. A bigger project, I'll admit, but it works wonderfully well.

Bill

[Bailey'sMom]

Easiest fix of all is to disconnect the electric connection and only use propane to heat.

[funpilot]

Easiest fix of all is to disconnect the electric connection and only use propane to heat.

Sounds like my Truma ....

[TM Pilot]

Bill,

Thanks for that link. I was looking for that but couldn't find it. For now, I think that mod may be overkill for me. But I'll read it more closely and think about it and then may reconsider.

For now, I don't mind using the electric water heater switch outside. I just wanted to install a mod where there is a light inside the TM next to the water heater gas switch so as to better remind me that the electric element is turned on when I'm closing up the TM so that I don't forget to turn it off.

Anybody install just a light? Details...

Bruce

[TM Pilot]

Thinking of adding a red LED 120V light somewhere on this 120V black wire between the hi-limit/thermostat reset switch and the electric element (see picture).

Any thoughts/suggestions?

[Bill]

I don't think that's quite what you want. It puts the light directly across the heating element, so it will go on and off as the thermostat turns the heating element on and off. The on-and-off operation of the light may drive you crazy.

Instead, I think you want the light connected from the cold side of the switch (right side in the diagram) to neutral. That way it will be ON whenever shore power is plugged in AND the switch is in the ON position.

By the way, I discovered the hard way that you want to get a reasonably dim light. Otherwise, it will be very bright at night, and keep you awake. And of course, while there is nothing wrong with using an LED, there is no particular reason to use one, since it will be operating only when shore power is available. On mine, I use a small 120-VAC neon light such as Catalog #: 2720712 from Radio Shack. Red is a good color choice, since its primary function is a warning light, and it is visible over a wide angle.

Bill

[TM Pilot]

Great tip, Bill. Yes, installing the light between the switch and the hi-limit & thermostat switches is where is needs to be (see updated picture). I need the light on whenever the electric element switch is on.

Getting to that section of wire may be a challenge. I can either pull the switch or remove the black plastic cover over the hi-limit/thermostat switches. The switch may break if I try to remove it and it's a tight area to work in. Probably easier to remove the thermostat cover. Then the challenge will be to find a way to run the wire from the thermostat to inside the TM.

Keep the suggestions coming. Thanks.

Bruce

[TM Pilot]

With the electric element switch turn on, the hot wire from the switch attaches to the lower right pole on the 120VAC hi-limit/T'Stat. It's a 14 gauge wire. There isn't much extra length to work with, but with some patience and creativity one can use a quick splice connector. The new wire leading to the light can easily enter the TM at the lower left corner of the hi-limit/T'stat area without drilling any holes (see picture).

I ordered that Radio Shack red neon lamp catalog #: 2720712 ($2.50 eBay!). Will probably use a single gang junction box with cover plate and mount next to water heater gas switch on the panel in front of sink. I'll update when complete.

[TM Pilot]

Instead, I think you want the light connected from the cold side of the switch (right side in the diagram) to neutral.
Bill

Bill,

1. The red indicator light has two 22 gauge wires. Are you saying to connect one wire to the black wire between the switch and hi-limit/T'Stat and the second wire to the white neutral wire between the electric element and electrical panel (see red line in picture#1)? Just don't want to get into a situation where the hi-limit/T'Stat is bypassed and the electric element is continuously energized (back fed) or I cause a short. Should I install a diode between the electric element and the indicator light?

2. Here are the specs for the Radio Shack red neon lamp catalog #: 2720712

Neon Lamp Assembly Including Bulb
(272-0712) Specifications Faxback Doc. # 38094

Voltage: .................................................. 120 VAC, 60 Hz
Typical Current: ........................................... 1.5 milli amp
Maximum Current: ............................................. 2 milli amp

NOTE: Not recommended to apply 2 milli amp or the life of the neon is
shortened by 1/3.

Maximum Current Tolerance: ................................. 0.5 milli amp
Life Expectancy: ..................................... Approx. 20,000 Hrs.
Color: .................................................. ............. Red
Mounting Hole Size: ............................................ 9/32 Inch
Leads............................................. ..................... 4.92", 22 ga.
Brightness (MSCP)............................................ ... 150 LUX

Specifications are typical; individual units might vary. Specifications are
subject to change and improvement without notice.
------------------------------------------------------------------

The wire between the switch and the hi-limit thermostat is 14 gauge. The two wires for the red indicator light are 22 gauge. When the 1440 watt electric element is on that's 12 amps in the circuit. Can a 22 gauge wire handle 12 amps? If the indicator light has a 2 milli amp limit wouldn't it fail if directly connected to a 12 amp circuit? Do I need a resistor or is one built into the neon light (I would assume it's built in - seems that way when I zoom into picture #2)? In your mod you linked to earlier, you had a green indicator light wired in. I didn't see how that light was wired in your schematic. How did you do it?

Am I overthinking this (diodes; resistors) or is hooking up an indicator light really this complicated/problematic? Knowing if the resistor was built in to the neon light would answer a lot of questions.

Bruce

[Bill]

Bill,

1. The red indicator light has two 22 gauge wires. Are you saying to connect one wire to the black wire between the switch and hi-limit/T'Stat and the second wire to the white neutral wire between the electric element and electrical panel (see red line in picture#1)? Yes, that is exactly right.

2. Here are the specs for the Radio Shack red neon lamp catalog #: 2720712 Radio Shack specs have always been close to meaningless, but they have really raised the meaningless bar here. I'm not sure where you are seeing these words - they are not in the description or specs listed for the lamp.

The wire between the switch and the hi-limit thermostat is 14 gauge. The two wires for the red indicator light are 22 gauge. When the 1440 watt electric element is on that's 12 amps in the circuit. Can a 22 gauge wire handle 12 amps?The 12-amp current flows through the heavy (#14) wire. The only current through the lightweight (#22) wire is the current that operates the lamp - about 1 mA.

Do I need a resistor or is one built into the neon light? The resistor is built into the assembly. That is what makes it a 120-volt light, as opposed to 240-volt, for instance, which would have a different value resistor.

In your mod you linked to earlier, you had a green indicator light wired in. I didn't see how that light was wired in your schematic. How did you do it?I think you are referring to the diagram for the Improved Water Heater Switch. In that diagram, the current to light the lamp flows from the Hot (black) wire, down through the left set of relay contacts, then down through the "Push to Turn Off Switch", and through the light to the neutral (white) wire.

Am I overthinking this?Yes - it is much easier than you are thinking.

Bill

[Bill]

TM Pilot -

Feel free to skip this explanation. Sometimes I get carried away, but you seem interested, so I will plow ahead.

Electricity seems a lot more complicated than it really is, but that's mostly because of the strange words. Electricians make sure to use the strange words, and that's why they can charge big bucks. (OK, now who have I offended?)

It is sometimes helpful to note that the flow of electricity in wires is very similar to the flow of water in pipes. In each case, we are dealing with a FLOW. In plumbing, flow is measured in gallons per minute. In electricity, flow is measured in amps (or milliamps). Same thing.

In the case of your water heater diagram, TM Pilot, let's think of it this way.

At the top left of the diagram, there is a water supply. The supply pipe is labelled Black (Hot), and it is a BIG pipe - size #14. The amount of water available from this pipe is large, but you can take a lot of water or a little water or however much you want. The amount of water you take is determined by whatever you hook up downstream. We'll get there in a minute.

As you follow the water flow through the big pipe, you first come to a Switch. This is a shutoff valve that you operate by hand. You can completely stop the flow of water here. If the switch is set to let the water to pass (in other words, ON), then the next thing you encounter is a High Limit Switch. This is another shutoff valve, just like the first one, except that it operates automatically under emergency conditions. Then you get to a Thermostat Switch. Again, this is a shutoff valve that operates automatically, turning on and off based on some condition downstream.

So now you get to the Heating Element. Think of this as a cap on the pipe, with a hole drilled in the cap. When all of the switches are ON, then water flows out of the hole, and the amount that flows depends on how big the hole is. In the case of this appliance, the hole is big and a lot of water can flow through it. Where does the water go? Down the drain. The drain is labelled Neutral (white).

OK, so at the left side of the diagram we have a big pipe (size #14) that can supply a LOT of water. The pipe comes from the left side of the diagram, goes through the Switches (valves) to the Heating Element, where a LOT of water spurts out. In other words, a lot of current flows through the Heating Element.

Now let's go back to the beginning of that big pipe, and attach a second, much smaller pipe. And let's attach it just beyond the Switch, but before the High Limit Switch and the Thermostat Switch. This smaller pipe is size #22. At the end of this small pipe is the Light, which is represented by a cap with a hole drilled in it. The hole is very small, so even when lots of water is available, only a trickle of water actually comes through. Where does this water go? Again, down the drain, which is still labelled Neutral.

Conclusion 1. Whenever the Switch is ON, water will come out of the hole at the end of tiny pipe - in other words, the light is ON. It doesn't matter whether the High Limit Switch and Thermostat Switch are ON or OFF.

Conclusion 2. When we are looking at the amount of water that flows through the small #22 pipe, do we have to be concerned with the amount of water that is flowing through the big #14 pipe? No. They are independent.

---------------------------

Let me apologize in advance to anyone who feels that this little lecture is way off course. I agree. Perhaps it shouldn't be here, and I won't take issue with anyone who feels that. And I will be glad to take it down if requested.

Bill

[TM Pilot]

Thanks for both posts, Bill. Very helpful. I've only installed 12vdc indicator lights in vehicles - never 120vac indicator lights using neon gas. Just trying to anticipate and avoid any problems. Sound like this should be as simple as plug & play.

As far as the specs on the Radio Shack red neon lamp catalog #: 2720712, I got them from a picture of the back of the packaging and this link: http://support.radioshack.com/support_supplies/doc38/38094.htm

Indicator light should arrive Monday. With the holiday next weekend, will problem install in a couple of weeks. Will update with pictures then.

Thanks again.

Bruce

[TM Pilot]

Project complete! Water Heater electric element's new red indicator light works great!

Thanks, Bill.

[Bill]

Nice work, Bruce. I bet you get a lot of "how do I ...?" queries.

Bill

[ThePair]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to post something I found.

I, too, have succumbed to the error of accidentally plugging in the TM with the electric on, with no water (i.e. drained when leaving site, forgot to turn off heater, plugged in to recharge when got home, etc.) I saw the excellent thread to build a relay-based switch inside, which will automatically drop the 120V when the TM is unplugged, and will not reconnect the heater 120V until a button is pressed on the panel (http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/album.php?albumid=74)

I was researching the current parts to do this procedure, and came across this:

https://www.amazon.com/Shop-Fox-D4530-Magnetic-Switch/dp/B00TGVLTZE/

I looked into this part, and it seems to be exactly what the mod does: it's a magnetic safety switch, and the 'ON' button will only stay on when there's 120V AC present on the line. If the 120V drops, the switch opens, and does not close again until 120V is restored AND the 'ON' button is pressed again. It's designed for power tools, so if there's a power outage, the tool doesn't start up again when the power returns. But, this seems like it should work just fine for this application. Plus, it's an easy install: one cut out on the panel, connect to hot and neutral, call it a day.

I've placed one on order, but I likely won't have a chance to install it until the spring (I'm likely going to store my TM for the winter tonight). I just thought I'd pass it along to anyone else who might be interested.

[tentcamper]

I made a simple indicator flag to remember to turn off the element. My thought came from when I use to work on the flight line and all those little flags to remind the flight crew to remove things before pre-flight.

I used a modified hospital red arm band.

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=214&pictureid=1302

[Bill]

I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to post something I found. I was researching the current parts to do this procedure, and came across this:

https://www.amazon.com/Shop-Fox-D4530-Magnetic-Switch/dp/B00TGVLTZE/

This looks like great find. Wish I had known about it when I built the original. Because of the exposed terminals on the back of the unit, you will want to enclose it in an outlet box, but that is easy.

Good work!

Bill

[ThePair]

I made a simple indicator flag to remember to turn off the element. My thought came from when I use to work on the flight line and all those little flags to remind the flight crew to remove things before pre-flight.

I used a modified hospital red arm band.



I used something less obvious, same concept. Overlooked it at last close-down, hence my interest in something that more fool-proof than I am foolish. :rolleyes:

[flipflop]

Hi Cindy,

After you have purged all of the air out and the hot water tank is ready, turn on your propane tank. Then turn on the hot water for propane operation by flipping the switch on the panel on the front of the sink. There is an indicator light next to the switch which should come on. When the air is purged out of the propane tube,the water heater will ignite and then the indicator light will go out.

To operate on 120 volt power. When the trailer is plugged in, open the access door to the water heater compartment. In the lower lefthand corner of that compartment is a small black rocker switch. To operate the hot water heater on 120 volt turn that switch on. You can run them both at the same time or seperately.

Hope this helps...

Another thing is under the outside cover there are two manual reset buttons behind a rubber grommet. Here's the Suburban owner's manual http://www.rpod-owners.com/uploads/3887/204670_SW4-6D6DEDMDEM_REV_E_03-17-2015.pdf

On Page 5 it talks about the reset buttons. On Page 7 is diagrams of the buttons. Mine is like Figure 13, two reset buttons side-by-side.

I had to reset them both this trip to get the water heater going with AC and LP.

[ThePair]

Ok, I have installed the relay switch that I previously posted about, and it works exactly as described. It will engage only when 120V is present (i.e. TM plugged into shore power) and will remain engaged until either A. shore power is unplugged, or B. you manually press "off". Once disengaged by either method, it will not engage again until both A. shore power is present AND B. you manually press the ON switch.

It is, in a nutshell, a perfect switch for this application. I may not bother with the outside switch any more, as this simply won't activate the WH until I tell it to, which is when I'm standing at the kitchen sink and making sure the hot water is flowing from the faucet.

I installed it on the front "control panel" where the coax cable was -- I never use that, so I repurposed that space.

[Bill]

Ok, I have installed the relay switch that I previously posted about, and it works exactly as described... It is, in a nutshell, a perfect switch for this application.Love it, great find! Simple to add to the TM, and no more replacing a burned out water heating element.

Thanks

Bill

[ThePair]

Love it, great find! Simple to add to the TM, and no more replacing a burned out water heating element.

Thanks

Bill

Added some pics for everyone. The under cabinet one shows the location of the junction box -- remove the drain pipe and stile for easier access. The other shows where I mounted the switch.

To install, I enlarged the hole for the cable to approx 1" x 2" for the switch. I disconnected the yellow romex wire bundle going into the junction box, and that bundle had hot, neutral, and ground. I then cut up an old monitor cable which also had hot, neutral, ground, and ran that back from the magnetic switch to the junction box. Works perfectly so far with minimal fuss on the wiring (once I figured it all out...)

The water heater calls for 14/2 105 degree rated wire, and that's exactly what the monitor cable was, so there you go.

[kakic63]

I am still confused even after reading everything . So do you fill the water tank no matter what if you want hot water ?

[Shane826]

I assume you're confused by people saying you have to fill the tank before using the hot water heater. let me try to be more specific to clarify... This means you have to purge the air from the 6 gallon hot water tank by opening the hot water faucets in the kitchen and/or bathroom to allow the water to push the air out and fill the hot water tank. When the faucet stops spitting and sputtering, your hot water tank is full of water and you can turn on the water heater. You can do this either with a city water connection or by filling the onboard fresh water tank and using the pump. If you don't have water in the white water tank and turn on the electric heater, it will burn out the element.

Long story short, you have to fill the hot water tank to use the hot water heater. You don't have to fill the fresh water tank to do so.

[kakic63]

so on shore power and city water you don't have to fill anything correct you just attach water purge air then flip the switch correct?

[Shane826]

You got it.

[RottieMom]

so on shore power and city water you don't have to fill anything correct you just attach water purge air then flip the switch correct?

Well, when you say purge air, I believe you're also filling the water heater tank when you do that.