How do you adjust your Brake Controler

[Keith Wire]

Hi all,

In another thread (http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10882&page=3) I posed the question "How do you properly adjust the Brake Controller?"

I have a Prodigy controller and here are the steps from the Prodigy manual:

1. Connect trailer to tow vehicle.
2. With engine running hold manual full left and set
Power Knob to indicate 6.0
3. Drive tow vehicle and trailer on a dry level paved
surface at 25 mph and fully apply manual knob.
✓ If trailer brakes lock up:
❑ Turn power down using power knob.
✓ If braking was not sufficient:
❑ Turn power up using power knob.
4. Repeat Step (3) until power has been set to a point
just below wheel lock up or at a sufficient force as
to achieve maximum braking power.
5. Using the brake pedal, make a few low speed
stops to check the power setting. Trailer braking is
initiated and terminated via the stoplight switch.
When the brake pedal is released, trailer braking
will cease.

As I stated in the other thread it is near impossible to lock the wheels on the TM.

Rick said: go until you feel the Trailer "pulling your TV backwards" with just a moderate amount of "extra" braking power in comparison to the TV stopping all by itself ... and don't push the power adjustment any further.

Now I am not new to driving or pulling trailers, but I find it hard to know when I have the power set correctly on the Prodigy Controller.

So the question is, how do you adjust your controller? Is there a proven way, or do we all just have to guess; then hope and pray we have it right?

Thanks, Keith

[MisterP]

I used a Prodigy with my first TM and a Trailblazer. I set the unit exactly as described in your post, and I was able to lock the trailer brakes with the manual brake activation lever (or button, I don't recall but think it was a lever).

So I believe these instructions are correct. My suggestion is find a straight stretch of road, and progressively add or subtract brake settings on the Prodigy so you can feel the trailer brakes stopping you when you use the manual brake lever. Don't put your foot on the vehicle brake, use the Prodigy. If the brakes lock, reduce the setting and try again. You want to feel the connected vehicle/trailer slowing and releasing when only using the Prodigy manual brake lever.

[Keith Wire]

MisterP,

Well, our experience has been different. I have tried to set the power level twice using their method and neither time could I get the brakes to "lock up". This was on a nice straight asphalt highway just outside of town. I started at the 6.0 and increased it all the way to the maximum.

Sure I can feel the brakes work when I pull the lever. Sure it stops both the TM and the TV without touching the brakes in the TV. I even went underneath and put an AMP meter on the brake lines and had my wife pull the lever. The current for both brakes were the same.

My understanding is that you want the TM brakes to pull just a bit more than the TV brakes. And that the power setting should really be changed to a lower setting if you are driving on wet highways.

My problem is I can't find a good way to determine the "best" settings for those conditions.

I may be making too much of this, but I was once nearly in a serious accident which was caused by a incorrectly loaded utility trailer.

I think getting this setting right is very important for all of us.

Anybody else have anything to add?

Keith

[MudDog]

For what it's worth, I also have a Prodigy (I believe mine is a P2) and was not able to lock the TM brakes with it installed in my Sienna and still can't with it in my Tacoma.

When manually activating the Prodiigy lever, I definetly feel the TM brakes, but not enough to come anywhere near locking them. I've never felt like the TV is being pushed by the TM, but don't have a reference point to compare to to know if I'm trully getting maximum power to the brakes from the Prodigy.

The only time I have felt it lock the brakes is when I made a tight turn and the break-away cable wasn't routed properly and the plunger came out of the emergency brake activator.

[PopBeavers]

For what it's worth, I also have a Prodigy (I believe mine is a P2) and was not able to lock the TM brakes with it installed in my Sienna and still can't with it in my Tacoma.

When manually activating the Prodiigy lever, I definetly feel the TM brakes, but not enough to come anywhere near locking them. I've never felt like the TV is being pushed by the TM, but don't have a reference point to compare to to know if I'm trully getting maximum power to the brakes from the Prodigy.

The only time I have felt it lock the brakes is when I made a tight turn and the break-away cable wasn't routed properly and the plunger came out of the emergency brake activator.

That has been my experience, minus the pulled pin.

At first I was towing with the Valley Industries Odyssey on my Chevy 1500HD, a Prodigy knock off with a couple of additional features, and was never able to get the 25 mph lock. Now I tow with a factory integrated brake controller in my 2500HD. I really like the IBC, but it also will not perform the 25 mph brake lock up test.

I have just used trial and error to find a setting that seems to be good. It is rare for me to boost change settings as I alternate between freeway driving and city driving. I did that more often in the 1500HD. Not sure if the difference is because of the larger truck or the different brake controller.

I think, but am not sure, that the IBC is connected to the brake line, like the Jordan (I think) was.

[RLDeLay]

When we first started with our TM the brakes would not lock. We contacted Dexter about a problem with the brakes. In the course of one of the discussions they pointed out that maintenance called for the brakes to be adjusted every 3000 miles.

We have been following that schedule and the brakes will now lock up at a setting of around 9+ on the Prodigy.

Bob

[brulaz]

We inadvertently tested our Prodigy brake setting with a scary emergency stop. The TV was pushed ahead and to the side slightly by the trailer, so obviously our setting (about 5.5) wasn't high enough. But like others I couldn't set the Prodigy high enough to get them to lock up manually during testing.

I suppose you could keep trying emergency stops at different settings until you find one where the TV and trailer do not jack-knife, but that's pretty hard on everything.

Currently we use a Prodigy setting of 7.5-8 based more on concerns about TV brake fade on long downhills. At this setting the TV's rear drums are very roughly the same temp as the trailer's during long descents. At lower settings the trailer's are a lower temp and vica-versa.

This setting (7.5-8) is certainly better than 5.5 for emergency stops as well, but I don't know for sure whether it will prevent jack-knifing. That will have to wait for our next emergency stop.

[Mr. Adventure]

We inadvertently tested our Prodigy brake setting with a scary emergency stop. The TV was pushed ahead and to the side slightly by the trailer, so obviously our setting (about 5.5) wasn't high enough. But like others I couldn't set the Prodigy high enough to get them to lock up manually during testing.

I suppose you could keep trying emergency stops at different settings until you find one where the TV and trailer do not jack-knife, but that's pretty hard on everything.

Currently we use a Prodigy setting of 7.5-8 based more on concerns about TV brake fade on long downhills. At this setting the TV's rear drums are very roughly the same temp as the trailer's during long descents. At lower settings the trailer's are a lower temp and vica-versa.

This setting (7.5-8) is certainly better than 5.5 for emergency stops as well, but I don't know for sure whether it will prevent jack-knifing. That will have to wait for our next emergency stop.


I, too, cannot achieve any wheel lockup on dry pavement no matter where I set the controller. Currently, I set it for "9" on dry pavement and dial it back to 7.5 in the rain on the theory that I really don't want wheel lockups anyway.

[Keith Wire]

Thanks for all the replies. At least I know I am not alone in not being able to lock the TM brakes while adjusting.

I have searched all the internet and can't find a real good answer to the question. I have been keeping my power setting on 6 or 6.5. I will experiment some more with higher settings when I get the TM out the next time.

I just wish there was a more "scientific" way of setting the adjustment :).

Thanks, Keith

[M&M Hokie]

Just for apples to apples comparisons:what boost mode are you prodigy owners using?

[Keith Wire]

Mark,

I do not run with any boost.

Keith

[Mr. Adventure]

Hi all,

So the question is, how do you adjust your controller? Is there a proven way, or do we all just have to guess; then hope and pray we have it right?

Thanks, Keith

The best way is to follow the manual. After that, we all have to guess, and then hope and pray we have it right.

I'd like to believe the trailer axle would do it's own stopping. But without anti-lock brakes and given the guessing the controller has to do to understand what's going on, I figure the trailer will only actually do about 2/3 of it's own braking. This means that when towing in the best of circumstances, we still need to allow better following distances and drive at slower speeds to compensate. And it's always in the back of my mind that my TrailManor came from the factory with wire nuts on the brake wires :(.

[brulaz]

No boost here either. IIRC the manual recommended boost only for heavier trailers.

And what Mr. Adventure says is so true. "Theoretically" the trailer brakes should stop the trailer. That's the assumption behind my Tacoma's 6500# tow capacity. And unfortunately, if that's not the case I cannot necessarily rely on my TV's brakes because it's GVW is pretty well maxed out (>= GVWR).

So you just have to be really paranoid about your trailer brakes. Make sure *both* are working and adjusted properly.

There may also be better controllers out there than the prodigy, but I don't know which. In particular, I would like one that measures current so you can tell if both brakes are working. And one with better or adjustable brake timing/synchronization. Currently at high settings (>7), the trailer brakes come on much sooner and harder than the truck brakes, making for very jerky action at low speeds.

[M&M Hokie]

IIRC the manual recommended boost only for heavier trailers.


Not technically true, see attached. It loosely defines which boost setting to use by comparing TV weight to trailer weight. With my Tundra, either ".c" or "b.1" settings are suggested. If I were to tow with my Sienna again, ".c", "b.1", "b.2" settings are suggested. (Using 4000 lbs as TM weight)

[rickst29]

I'd like to believe the trailer axle would do it's own stopping. But... I figure the trailer will only actually do about 2/3 of it's own braking....If you've got 1/3 of the Trailer braking coming from the Tow Vehicle, you need to turn your current value up-- a lot. I hope that I misinterpreted your post, but it sound as if you've got 1/3 of the braking action for the Trailer coming from the TV brakes, through the hitch. If so, that's dangerous and wrong: The Trailer pushing forwards on the TV, while the "stronger" TV brakes are resisting the push, is recipe for skid.

That's a skid of the entire Trailer versus the TV, not just the TV rear axle. Now think about that for a moment: If you see the rear of your Trailer trying to "catch up" with you, along the side of your TV, you're almost certainly headed for the ditch! The only way out is to speed up strongly, turn the front of your TV to the side where the rear of the Trailer is going.

You need to have the Trailer "pulling" the Trailer back under all braking conditions, because that keeps the hitch in line. EVER have the Trailer pushing the TV! The Trailer brakes need to be slightly stronger: At a given brake pedal position, the Trailer has slightly shorter stopping distance than the TV. (if it could maintain exactly that amount of braking while disconnected from the TV.)
-----
That's why you MUST feel a bit of "pull", and never any "push". But per that post I wrote in the other Thread, I think that Prodigy's advice doesn't work in slick road conditions- they tell you to set the controller "just short of lock-up" on DRY pavement. That can be too much braking power, if the TV's antilock engages before a Trailer wheel begins to spin; or, it can be a disaster-- if one of the Trailer wheels starts spinning, and the whole thing starts to skid.

Like TM's advice to "ALWAYS" fill the tire to maximum pressure shown on the sidewall (which have been inspired by the Firestone lawsuits and bankruptcy), Prodigy's advice is legally safer for them, but IMO not optimal for you unless you avoid towing in rain and snow. In addition to skids provoked by a spinning tire, it can cause the Trailer to pull your TV out of line on a curve. For example: Think of braking on a downhill switch, when your TV is already most of the way through the turn-- but your Trailer isn't. Under Mr. Adventure's scheme, the Trailer has only about 2/3 of the braking it needs -- so it tries to go straight (over the cliff and through the woods, to Grandmother's house.... dragging your TV with it). Under Prodigy's scheme, the Trailer stops really fast and hard-- but your TV is still moving quite a bit, SIDEWAYS relative to the "parked" Trailer. This is not a good situation, IMO. Hitch components could be broken, and maybe one of the two vehicles could be flipped on it's side. (The Trailer would flip to the "inside" of the switchback curve; the TV would fall towards the outside, and possibly go down the hill as a result.)
- - - - -
Answering a question above, my 4Runner and 2619 are well-matched with setting "B.7"

[Mr. Adventure]

...I hope that I misinterpreted your post...

I'm pointing out the weaknesses in trailer brakes and controllers as a reason for caution while towing. Anyone thinking they are going to do a panic stop while towing in the same distance as their solo tow vehicle with its computer controlled anti-lock braking system is mistaken, though admittedly by an amount that's pretty hard to determine without actual measurements.

I get this by the following logic:
1) The point of maximum braking is infinitesimally short of a skid because static friction is greater than dynamic friction. Your tow vehicle's anti-lock brakes know how to find this point independently for each of your four tow vehicle tires, but your trailer has no similar features.
2) Even without anti-lock brakes on the TV, you'd have enough braking capacity to lock all four of your tow vehicle tires. With your trailer brake controller at maximum, you probably can't lock the trailer tires on dry pavement (don't try this in traffic). Therefore, your trailer is not equipped with the same braking capacity at each wheel as your tow vehicle.
3) You don't want your trailer brakes to lock, ever. A skidding trailer behind your better-braking tow vehicle would try to pass you. Therefore a trailer braking system that is not able to lock up the wheels is a feature, not a bug, as we used to say in the software business.
4) Not all road surfaces provide the same traction. There are bigger braking problems on slipperier surfaces.

Therefore, even the smartest available brake controller can't make our trailer brakes completely do their share. The controller can make the trailer brakes start earlier and manage themselves through the stop. But, the trailer system has to be compromised enough so that the trailer doesn't lock up on a wet road (you might not have time to readjust the controller settings while you're concentrating on a rainy panic stop).

My proposed rule of thumb would be that your tow vehicle routinely has to stop itself plus 1/3 of the trailer's weight not just because your tow vehicle is carrying a good chunk of it on the tongue but also because your tow vehicle is also a substantially better stopper than your trailer. Your stopping distance will accordingly be longer.

Is a longer stopping distance unsafe? Yes, when you are going too fast for your vehicle, load, and conditions. Absolutely, when it's longer than the distance to the problem in front of you.

[brulaz]

Not technically true, see attached. It loosely defines which boost setting to use by comparing TV weight to trailer weight. With my Tundra, either ".c" or "b.1" settings are suggested.

Ah yes, thanks. Same with my Tacoma.

Guess I never tried the b.1 setting because the trailer brakes already come on earlier than the TV brakes at high (non-boost) settings, making for very jerky operation at low speeds. Wish that timing part could be adjusted better, perhaps if it were speed sensitive?

Or maybe I should try reducing the numeric value down some from 8 and using b.1 instead of .c ? Hmmmm ...

[joshbw]

I have a Prodigy P2 and my brakes don't lock up. I'm sure they are in need of adjustment because I have not had them apart yet. On the highway I run mine on as high as they go, 12 with no boost. Seems to work well and no lockup. I had an emergency stop at over 70mph with my abs engaging because the cars in front of me slammed their brakes. I must say my rig stopped on a dime, I couldn't even tell I had the loaded down trailer behind me. The guy behind me with his F350 and triple axle fifth wheel had to bail to the dirt median, luckily it was their or my rig would have been toast.

On city driving I cut it back to about 7 or 8 to smooth it out. Also on steep declines I cut it back because the trailer brakes seem to heat up really quickly compared to my truck brakes.

[Mr. Adventure]

I have a Prodigy P2 and my brakes don't lock up. I'm sure they are in need of adjustment because I have not had them apart yet. On the highway I run mine on as high as they go, 12 with no boost. Seems to work well and no lockup. I had an emergency stop at over 70mph with my abs engaging because the cars in front of me slammed their brakes. I must say my rig stopped on a dime, I couldn't even tell I had the loaded down trailer behind me. The guy behind me with his F350 and triple axle fifth wheel had to bail to the dirt median, luckily it was their or my rig would have been toast.

On city driving I cut it back to about 7 or 8 to smooth it out. Also on steep declines I cut it back because the trailer brakes seem to heat up really quickly compared to my truck brakes.

Trailer brakes could heat up too quickly in long downhill stretches when the controller setting is cranked all the way to 12 because the trailer is doing too much of the braking for too long, and you could be cooking the trailer brakes. In effect, you're asking the trailer to do more of the routine braking.

In a panic stop, you probably would get more braking out of the trailer that way, but you're also at higher risk of a trailer brake lockup on wet pavement (you can manually do the same thing by applying the lever on the controller). Of course, you'll still have a longer stopping distance than if you weren't towing.

I've always thought this adventure in the thread that follows was caused by an overly aggressive trailer brake setting:
http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6931&highlight=bolt+wheel

[joshbw]

I see your point but the prodigy manual states to set your controller to the point where your brakes are about to lock up. At 12 my brakes will not lock so how is this too aggressive? This is just my take and I'm not a brake expert.

If its wet the controller setting most definitely reduces to about 8.

[Mr. Adventure]

I see your point but the prodigy manual states to set your controller to the point where your brakes are about to lock up. At 12 my brakes will not lock so how is this too aggressive? This is just my take and I'm not a brake expert.

If its wet the controller setting most definitely reduces to about 8.

Ok, you've got me there. Honestly, I think we're short on perfect answers, and you are always the only "brake expert" available for your own tow vehicle. At 12 the trailer is doing too much of the ordinary braking (rough ride in town, hard on the trailer brakes, possibly fade or even failure inducing on long downhill grades). At 8 the trailer's contribution in a panic stop is capped at some fraction of the trailer's full braking capacity.

The practice of using different settings in different conditions is not a bad idea as long as you can remember to make the changes in time for you to need them. High settings have the trailer doing more of the braking. This can be a good thing in panic stops on dry pavement, and possibly too much of a good thing the rest of the time.

PopBeavers once posted that he never routinely applies the brakes for more than 10 seconds at a time. While this could cause some consternation behind you, I think it helps control heat in the brakes on long downhill stretches.

[rjlwork]

We're in the process of buying a "new to us" Chevy Avalanche. Is the Prodigy brake controller the best way to go or is there a different controller that works better with a pickup on a Tahoe frame?

Judy
2010 Trailmini
2007 Buick Rendezvous

[brulaz]

Let's see, 12 at highway speeds, maybe 6 at low speeds around town, maybe 8 when braking downhill and perhaps in the rain?

There's gotta be a better way ...

[Mr. Adventure]

No boost here either. IIRC the manual recommended boost only for heavier trailers.

And what Mr. Adventure says is so true. "Theoretically" the trailer brakes should stop the trailer. That's the assumption behind my Tacoma's 6500# tow capacity. And unfortunately, if that's not the case I cannot necessarily rely on my TV's brakes because it's GVW is pretty well maxed out (>= GVWR).

So you just have to be really paranoid about your trailer brakes. Make sure *both* are working and adjusted properly.

There may also be better controllers out there than the prodigy, but I don't know which. In particular, I would like one that measures current so you can tell if both brakes are working. And one with better or adjustable brake timing/synchronization. Currently at high settings (>7), the trailer brakes come on much sooner and harder than the truck brakes, making for very jerky action at low speeds.

Your manufacturer thought about the possibilities of full and partial trailer brake performance and failures as part of rating the vehicle for towing. The question is "How carefully did they think about it?"

Your ideas about better brake controllers are good. I'd love to see electronic connections from the anti-lock system in the tow vehicle to the trailer brakes, but then I'd also like to see the economy recovering faster and the S&P 500 up about 25%. The Prodigy is a whole lot better than what we used to have, and we'll see further improvements someday.

According to how they do things in Oregon, per the attached, you stop in 1/3 less distance if you drive 60 instead of 70 (go to the end for the tables, skipping to the MPH ones, past the tables with their quaint practice for measuring speed in meters per second and stopping distances in feet).

[rickst29]

I'm pointing out the weaknesses in trailer brakes and controllers as a reason for caution while towing....Great post! And we're in total agreement. :D
On another point raised above: In a lengthy downhill stretch, most of the road will be straight. Engine braking and Tow-Vehicle braking have the same result at the Trailer hitch-- a slightly "risky" push back, into the Trailer. But engine braking via downshift preserves the TV brakes, so I prefer to do that first.

This all leads to a question: There's a new prodigy model, in the last year so. Does it offer better "tuning" of moderate versus extremely firm braking? I've got the "Trailer brakes too strong at light brake pressure" issue too, and I was wondering if anyone has experience with both generations of of Prodigy (V2 versus V3).

[T and C]

Hi all,

In another thread (http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10882&page=3) I posed the question "How do you properly adjust the Brake Controller?"

I have a Prodigy controller and here are the steps from the Prodigy manual:



As I stated in the other thread it is near impossible to lock the wheels on the TM.

Rick said:

Now I am not new to driving or pulling trailers, but I find it hard to know when I have the power set correctly on the Prodigy Controller.

So the question is, how do you adjust your controller? Is there a proven way, or do we all just have to guess; then hope and pray we have it right?

Thanks, Keith

Folks,

I think I might have hit on the answer as to why the Prodigy controller does not cause the brakes to lock up while adjusting the level. I just bought a new truck. While reading the owner's manual section about adjusting the brake control, I spotted this:

"If towing a heavier trailer, trailer wheel lockup may not be attainable even with the maximum gain setting of 10." This is referring to the Ford controller specifically, but....

I began thinking about the reason for this. The Prodigy directions are GENERAL, intended to fit most travel trailers, not TM's specifically. Most travel trailers have TWO axles. The TM has one. Since most TM's weigh in, loaded, at 4-5000 pounds, that means that the ONE axle on the trailer manor is carrying all the weight! So, the force downward on each tire is DOUBLE that of a two axle trailer!

That means that the little patch where the rubber meets the road on the bottom of the tire is being pushed down, by the weight of the trailer, with the force that you would find on a tire of an 8-10,000 pound trailer that has two axles. :eek: This would result in having MAJOR traction on our two tire trailers. No wonder they won't lock up.

Seems to me that this also helps to explain the blowout problem so many have experienced.

Does this make sense to the rest of you? If I have erred in my thinking, please correct me.

Tom

[Mr. Adventure]

Folks,

I think I might have hit on the answer as to why the Prodigy controller does not cause the brakes to lock up while adjusting the level. I just bought a new truck. While reading the owner's manual section about adjusting the brake control, I spotted this:

"If towing a heavier trailer, trailer wheel lockup may not be attainable even with the maximum gain setting of 10." This is referring to the Ford controller specifically, but....

I began thinking about the reason for this. The Prodigy directions are GENERAL, intended to fit most travel trailers, not TM's specifically. Most travel trailers have TWO axles. The TM has one. Since most TM's weigh in, loaded, at 4-5000 pounds, that means that the ONE axle on the trailer manor is carrying all the weight! So, the force downward on each tire is DOUBLE that of a two axle trailer!

That means that the little patch where the rubber meets the road on the bottom of the tire is being pushed down, by the weight of the trailer, with the force that you would find on a tire of an 8-10,000 pound trailer that has two axles. :eek: This would result in having MAJOR traction on our two tire trailers. No wonder they won't lock up.

Seems to me that this also helps to explain the blowout problem so many have experienced.

Does this make sense to the rest of you? If I have erred in my thinking, please correct me.

Tom

Tom,
I agree that a heavier load on an axle makes lockup harder for that axle. However, I'm thinking that a manufacturer of a 3500# axle provides brakes for a 3500# axle, and similarly a 5000# axle has brakes for a 5000# axle, but maybe there are some diminishing returns over there at Dexter Axle, Inc. I like the story from earlier on this thread where adjusting the brakes made them work better so that lockups became possible. (This link shows the range of what Dexter Axle has: http://www.easternmarine.com/Electric-Trailer-Brake-Assemblies/)

Regardless, we really don't want lockups on trailers anyway. The fuzz in all these factors keeps saying to me that trailer brakes are only meant to be helpers that can do most of the trailer stopping, but never all of the trailer stopping. And I bet this idea wouldn't be a surprise to a truck driver. I have a friend with a lot of experience in the trucking business, but I never thought to ask him before. I'll let you know what I learn.

I believe the 14" tires are underperforming relative to their ratings, because that's where the vast majority of failures are happening. We have very few stories about 15" tire failures.

[PopBeavers]

I have upgraded from my Valley Industries Odyssey controller (Prodigy knockoff) to the factory integrated brake controller.

It was only $30,000 dollars for the controller upgrade. :D

I like the feeling of the braking ability for both city streets and highways on boost level 7, but that does not translate into a prodigy number as far as I know. I determined boost 7 by trial and error and gut feel. A SWAG (Scientific Wild A.. Guess).

The newer truck automatically downshifts the 6 speed transmission when I apply the brakes long enough. So for long down grades I don't have to even think about manually down shifting. I think it does an excellent job of choosing the proper gear.

[PopBeavers]

I had forgotten something I read in my truck owner's manual, so I looked it up again.

The Integrated Trailer Brake Control System is integrated with your vehicles brake, anti-lock brake and StabileTrak (if equipped) systems. In trailering conditions that use your vehicle's anti-lock or StabiliTrak systems to activate, power sent to the trailer's brakes will be automatically adjusted to minimize trailer wheel lock-up.

I think that what this means is that if I slam on the brakes, resulting in the ABS taking control and pulsing the brakes to just barely avoid skidding the truck wheels, then it also reduces the braking power to the trailer to at least attempt to avoid having the trailer skid.

I have not tested this feature. But it sounds interesting.

[brulaz]

I think that what this means is that if I slam on the brakes, resulting in the ABS taking control and pulsing the brakes to just barely avoid skidding the truck wheels, then it also reduces the braking power to the trailer to at least attempt to avoid having the trailer skid.


I'm beginning to think your factory integrated brake controller is the way to go.

Not only for its ABS integration, but because you can run your controller on the same setting at slow speeds as highway speeds without all the lurching we Prodigy owners are complaining about (?). I bet your factory controller internally modifies its operation based on vehicle speed.

Sounds like a true set-and-forget solution.

Does it monitor current rather than voltage so it can tell if one of the trailer brakes is disconnected?

[Mr. Adventure]

I had forgotten something I read in my truck owner's manual, so I looked it up again.

The Integrated Trailer Brake Control System is integrated with your vehicles brake, anti-lock brake and StabileTrak (if equipped) systems. In trailering conditions that use your vehicle's anti-lock or StabiliTrak systems to activate, power sent to the trailer's brakes will be automatically adjusted to minimize trailer wheel lock-up.

I think that what this means is that if I slam on the brakes, resulting in the ABS taking control and pulsing the brakes to just barely avoid skidding the truck wheels, then it also reduces the braking power to the trailer to at least attempt to avoid having the trailer skid.

I have not tested this feature. But it sounds interesting.

The good news is that the brake controller is paying attention to the ABS system, though we don't know how it gets the message or what the message is. The bad news is that on the trailer end it's still the same brakes and there are no sensors back there to tell the controller if/when lockup is happening. So it must be either dialing down the trailer brake response in hopes of preventing lockup or blindly trying to pulse the trailer brakes in an attempt to be helpful when the TV ABS activates. I have no idea if/how well either of these would actually work, but they sound like good ideas to try.

Real ABS would buy us a little shorter stop and give us better road control. But ABS is no panacea either, providing an increased risk of rollovers and actually longer stopping distances under some conditions (here's a study with some interesting observations, even though it's a little dated: http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/Other/RACV%20ABS%20braking%20system%20effectiveness.pdf) .

Regardless, driving 60 instead of 70 or 65 instead of 75 should give us a shorter stopping distance than anything a new controller can do for our existing trailer braking systems.

[PopBeavers]

I'm beginning to think your factory integrated brake controller is the way to go.

Not only for its ABS integration, but because you can run your controller on the same setting at slow speeds as highway speeds without all the lurching we Prodigy owners are complaining about (?). I bet your factory controller internally modifies its operation based on vehicle speed.

Sounds like a true set-and-forget solution.

Does it monitor current rather than voltage so it can tell if one of the trailer brakes is disconnected?

As far as I know, i does not monitor current.

I periodically will manually engage the TM brakes, just to make sure that they are working. This does not verify that both sides are working, nor does it verify that they are breaking at the proper rate.

[PopBeavers]

The good news is that the brake controller is paying attention to the ABS system, though we don't know how it gets the message or what the message is. The bad news is that on the trailer end it's still the same brakes and there are no sensors back there to tell the controller if/when lockup is happening. So it must be either dialing down the trailer brake response in hopes of preventing lockup or blindly trying to pulse the trailer brakes in an attempt to be helpful when the TV ABS activates. I have no idea if/how well either of these would actually work, but they sound like good ideas to try.

Real ABS would buy us a little shorter stop and give us better road control. But ABS is no panacea either, providing an increased risk of rollovers and actually longer stopping distances under some conditions (here's a study with some interesting observations, even though it's a little dated: http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/Other/RACV%20ABS%20braking%20system%20effectiveness.pdf) .

Regardless, driving 60 instead of 70 or 65 instead of 75 should give us a shorter stopping distance than anything a new controller can do for our existing trailer braking systems.

On one occasion, I had to hit the brakes hard on a wet paved road going downhill. This was northbound on the Waldo Grade for those familiar with it. This was in my 1997 Dakota with ABS front only. No cargo in the bed.

I is high enough that I can see several cars ahead easily. When I saw multiple brake lights I hit the brakes hard enough to engage ABS. I have no doubt that I hit the brakes sooner than the guy in front of me.

It is not often that you have the opportunity to hit a Mercedez driven by a lawyer.

No damage to my truck at all. I dented the chrome trim around the trunk.

He probably had ABS all around and more weight on the rear tires than I did.

Yes, I should have been further back, but this is California. We have bumper to bumper traffic at 65 mph. Not all cities have that situation. If you leave a gap longer than 1.5 car lengths, someone will fill the gap for sure. No single and no warning either.

Rather rude. I was taught to signal for 5 seconds before making a lane change. Some drivers don't do that. Some drivers close the gap if they see turn signals.

[T and C]

Folks,

I think I might have hit on the answer as to why the Prodigy controller does not cause the brakes to lock up while adjusting the level. I just bought a new truck. While reading the owner's manual section about adjusting the brake control, I spotted this:

"If towing a heavier trailer, trailer wheel lockup may not be attainable even with the maximum gain setting of 10." This is referring to the Ford controller specifically, but....

I began thinking about the reason for this. The Prodigy directions are GENERAL, intended to fit most travel trailers, not TM's specifically. Most travel trailers have TWO axles. The TM has one. Since most TM's weigh in, loaded, at 4-5000 pounds, that means that the ONE axle on the trailer manor is carrying all the weight! So, the force downward on each tire is DOUBLE that of a two axle trailer!

That means that the little patch where the rubber meets the road on the bottom of the tire is being pushed down, by the weight of the trailer, with the force that you would find on a tire of an 8-10,000 pound trailer that has two axles. :eek: This would result in having MAJOR traction on our two tire trailers. No wonder they won't lock up.

Seems to me that this also helps to explain the blowout problem so many have experienced.

Does this make sense to the rest of you? If I have erred in my thinking, please correct me.

Tom

Today I went down to Custom RV to deal with some registration issues. I explained the above theory to Matt. He agreed with me about the traction. However, he was of the opinion that if you adjust the controller to its highest level of boost and then do the 25 mph thing, you should be able to lock the wheels.

He also told me that each corner jack is rated at 5000 pounds. So we should be able to use the jacks to change tires w/o a bottle jack or floor jack.

Tom

[PopBeavers]

Today I went down to Custom RV to deal with some registration issues. I explained the above theory to Matt. He agreed with me about the traction. However, he was of the opinion that if you adjust the controller to its highest level of boost and then do the 25 mph thing, you should be able to lock the wheels.

He also told me that each corner jack is rated at 5000 pounds. So we should be able to use the jacks to change tires w/o a bottle jack or floor jack.

Tom

You will likely not be able to lift one side of the TM by using a cordless drill. Make sure you have your hand crank with you for the corner jacks.

I was successful the one time I have a blowout. The jack in my 1500HD and Dakota would not go up high enough.

make sure you have something that will work before you leave home.

[BigBear]

I too have tried but never been able to get my 2007 2720sl trailer brakes to lock up so I have tended to go to the higher settings of at least 9. but don't know if this is right. To improve my overall braking performance, if I have an extra 200 lbs of tool boxes and water and stuff to carry, I put it on the back seat floor of my chevy trailblazer such that the 4 disc brakes on my truck handle the additional weight rather than counting on the trailer brakes. I have a lot more confidence in my truck's brakes than the trailer brakes, although I have not had any problems with the new prodigy controller. When I had an old tekonsha 2 type setting controller, I did not know how to set it properly, and did not have my trailer brakes on hardly at all one summer, and had a couple of scarey moments when the trailer tried to push me around a curve and another time when I tried to stop fast in a traffic jam. I really like the new prodigy type controller, but I still put more faith in my trucks brakes so try and put a few of the heavier items in my truck.

[Bill]

The easy answer is that, with the trailer hooked up, ordinary stopping should feel just like it does when the trailer is not hooked up. In the ideal world, this would happen at all speeds. But we don't live in the ideal world. So you try to hit a middle ground that is safe and effective.

If you come to a red light intersection at a speed like 40 mph, and apply the brakes as you usually do, and the trailer tries to push you into the intersection - well, the controller isn't adjusted high enough. On the other hand, if you come up to the same red light, and apply the brakes as you normally do, and your nose hits the steering wheel - well, you might back off on the controller a bit.

To me, this is the proper way to set it up, because this covers most of the stopping situations you will encounter. But the trailer brakes and the truck brakes do not track exactly - it is the difference between disc brakes (tow vehicle) and drum brakes (trailer). You will likely find that at low speeds, the trailer brakes too much. That's annoying, but not dangerous. And at high speeds, it may brake too little. That's what the manual lever is for - help it give you extra braking power. Of course, this requires a bit of practice, so you can hit the lever without fumbling for it.

Just my experience -

Bill

[Mr Geek]

Today I went down to Custom RV to deal with some registration issues. I explained the above theory to Matt. He agreed with me about the traction. However, he was of the opinion that if you adjust the controller to its highest level of boost and then do the 25 mph thing, you should be able to lock the wheels.

...
Tom

Hi Tom,

I too had a very similar issue, I just couldn't get enough stopping power from my electric brakes. When my RV was new, Custom RV installed my DrawTite timer based controller and my brakes worked fine, but then seemed less effective over time. Adjustments did not seem to help much, if at all. Then I noticed the last couple trips they just didn't seem to be working much at all. I decided to get to the bottom of this and felt a good brake job/upgrade was needed. After upgrading my brake assemblies to Dexter self-adjusting type and a new Prodigy controller, I finally found the real problem. It was the GROUND wire installed by the dealer.

They did not connect the controller ground directly to the battery as the instructions specifically state. Instead they ran a shorter wire through the firewall and used a painted screw with painted washer into the painted wheel well in the engine compartment. A horrible connection! I realize any GOOD ground would work, this was NOT a good ground.

I only found this problem because I upgraded my controller to the Prodigy and as it initialized it showed flaky numbers, then gave the error code for Bad Battery Ground. The DrawTite unit didn't have a clue, appeared to work normally. What a relief to finally get to the bottom of this problem.

So I replaced the crappy ground wire with a good quality ground directly to the battery as instructed in the installation instructions. Rock solid performance.

Because this was a weak and intermittent ground the problem it was tough to find. Same symptoms as you, they were working but noway would they lock the tires no matter how high I set the controller.

Just a thought.

[brulaz]

And at high speeds, it may brake too little. That's what the manual lever is for - help it give you extra braking power. Of course, this requires a bit of practice, so you can hit the lever without fumbling for it.


At high speeds you use the manual lever to assist your trailer braking?

Maybe on long mountain descents, one could.

But certainly not in a high-speed, emergency braking situation. Then you really have to have the controller set high enough so the trailer can brake itself.

I've never used the manual lever except at low speeds to check/set the brake setting.

EDIT: I currently have my prodigy set at 12 on the highway. But if I'm in town, I need to dial it down to get rid of the jerkiness. There really needs to be a better way, cause I can forget to dial it back upon the highway.

[T and C]

Folks,

I think I might have hit on the answer as to why the Prodigy controller does not cause the brakes to lock up while adjusting the level. I just bought a new truck. While reading the owner's manual section about adjusting the brake control, I spotted this:

"If towing a heavier trailer, trailer wheel lockup may not be attainable even with the maximum gain setting of 10." This is referring to the Ford controller specifically, but....

I began thinking about the reason for this. The Prodigy directions are GENERAL, intended to fit most travel trailers, not TM's specifically. Most travel trailers have TWO axles. The TM has one. Since most TM's weigh in, loaded, at 4-5000 pounds, that means that the ONE axle on the trailer manor is carrying all the weight! So, the force downward on each tire is DOUBLE that of a two axle trailer!

That means that the little patch where the rubber meets the road on the bottom of the tire is being pushed down, by the weight of the trailer, with the force that you would find on a tire of an 8-10,000 pound trailer that has two axles. :eek: This would result in having MAJOR traction on our two tire trailers. No wonder they won't lock up.

Seems to me that this also helps to explain the blowout problem so many have experienced.

Does this make sense to the rest of you? If I have erred in my thinking, please correct me.

Tom

Folks,

I posted the above theory back in October of this year. Last Sunday I had an experience that seems to me to add strength to my theory.

In November I took a 2000 mile trip towing my TM. The TM brakes have never locked up on me since I have had it. Upon returning from my trip I put the TM in the driveway and disconnected it from the TV. I did not adjust the Prodigy brake controller at all!

Sunday morning I was asked to deliver a 4 wheel trailer to my church. We rent the place we meet in, and use the trailer to carry a bunch of rolling cabinets full of sound equipment, as well as all sorts of stuff for the Children's classes, and more. I don't know the weight of the trailer empty, but it is a box trailer with two axles about 20 feet long.

Here in SoCal we are having several days of steady rain. As soon as I braked my truck/trailer combo while crossing the wet parking lot...the trailer brakes locked. The Prodigy is set on 6. Since I only had to go 3 miles or so each way on city streets at 25-35 mph, I did not adjust the Prodigy.

Every time I forgot to brake very early and softly, the trailer brakes locked up. This has never happened with the TM. Also, every time I thumbed the switch on the Prodigy, they locked up.

To me, this confirms my theory that the cause of the difficulty in locking TM brakes is in the weight that the single axle bears. Each wheel has to carry twice the weight of the wheels of a dual axle trailer of equal weight. TM's have MAJOR traction. So, the brakes are difficult to lock up.

Tom

[scrubjaysnest]

Might have something to do with twice the breaking. Our outback has brakes on all four wheels and I can lock them up. I also locked up the TM brakes in a panic stop at a traffic light. I set my controller so I can just barely feel the trailer brakes alone at parking lot speeds.

[Mr. Adventure]

Folks,

I posted the above theory back in October of this year. Last Sunday I had an experience that seems to me to add strength to my theory.

In November I took a 2000 mile trip towing my TM. The TM brakes have never locked up on me since I have had it. Upon returning from my trip I put the TM in the driveway and disconnected it from the TV. I did not adjust the Prodigy brake controller at all!

Sunday morning I was asked to deliver a 4 wheel trailer to my church. We rent the place we meet in, and use the trailer to carry a bunch of rolling cabinets full of sound equipment, as well as all sorts of stuff for the Children's classes, and more. I don't know the weight of the trailer empty, but it is a box trailer with two axles about 20 feet long.

Here in SoCal we are having several days of steady rain. As soon as I braked my truck/trailer combo while crossing the wet parking lot...the trailer brakes locked. The Prodigy is set on 6. Since I only had to go 3 miles or so each way on city streets at 25-35 mph, I did not adjust the Prodigy.

Every time I forgot to brake very early and softly, the trailer brakes locked up. This has never happened with the TM. Also, every time I thumbed the switch on the Prodigy, they locked up.

To me, this confirms my theory that the cause of the difficulty in locking TM brakes is in the weight that the single axle bears. Each wheel has to carry twice the weight of the wheels of a dual axle trailer of equal weight. TM's have MAJOR traction. So, the brakes are difficult to lock up.

Tom

Tom,
Thanks for the demo. Your church trailer is probably much lighter and therefore much easier to lock up, and easier still in the rain, requiring a much lower brake controller setting than the TM on dry pavement.

And, of course if you have 2 axles with the same brakes, each wheel would have half the weight for the same amount of braking oomph. Hypothetically, 2 2500# axles could be equipped with the same braking power of one 5000# axle (which would make them brake the same), but reality is probably more complicated than that because manufacturers always try to use the same parts in multiple places in the product line. So, your theory is probably right in the general case.

In every case, however, you don't want to have your trailer brakes locking up. Besides the obvious tire wear problems in the "ordinary" stops you were experiencing, in a panic stop locked trailer brakes make the trailer tires not care anymore about sideways, and the better stopping power of your TV antilock brakes will make the trailer want to pass you on one side or the other.

This is very tricky on slippery surfaces, because the brake controller needs lower settings to avoid lockup. Towing in the rain requires slower speeds and caution, and towing on ice is not something I would do except in dire emegency.

[scrubjaysnest]

Mr A is very very correct on this

[T and C]

Guys,

Y'know, I have heard that if you see your trailer passing you, you might have a control problem. ;)

Thanks for the reminders. I assure you that I am a very conservative driver, especially in the rain. I think that the trailer only has brakes on one axle. I pass the parking lot where we keep it almost daily, so I will check when it stops raining. I also want to check the empty weight.

Once I lost control of my '57 Ford in the rain on Pacific Coast Highway near Ventura. I was driving about 80 mph. :eek: Stupid? You bet. I was 21 and immortal. Don't want to experience that level of fear again.

Tom

[brulaz]

I think that the trailer only has brakes on one axle.

Every double axle boat trailer that I looked at in our last campsite also had only one axle with brakes. But those brakes were disk and caliper, not drum, so probably have more stopping power.

With our Dexter axles, the same axle can have a different GAWR depending upon the size of the brake drum, so both stopping ability and loaded weight capacity are definitely involved in calculating GAWR.

With the 2 axles, only one with brakes, arrangement, the axles may have a different and separate weight rating from the brakes; each axle with about half the weight rating of the brakes. Or maybe they just report the GAWR of the pair of axles plus single axle brakes combo. That would definitely make it easier to deal with.

Do the Trailmanor double axle trailers have drum brakes on both axles?

[T and C]

Folks,

We had a break in the rain late yesterday, so when I went out I stopped by the church trailer and checked. The GVWR is 7000 lbs. No empty trailer weight listed. It also has drum brakes on both axles.

I figure that with the stuff we have inside plus the trailer, its weight has to be 3000 to 4000 lbs. That is right in TM range.

Tom

[Bill]

Do the Trailmanor double axle trailers have drum brakes on both axles?The only two axle TM is the 3326. According to the TM specifications page, all TMs have "10-inch Electric brakes on all wheels".

Bill

[mjlaupp]

OK, y'all got me to wondering so I checked. There are brakes on all four wheels.

[brulaz]

OK, y'all got me to wondering so I checked. There are brakes on all four wheels.

My wife would like that, after losing one of our 2 brakes last summer, and not even being aware of it. And, of course, with 4 wheels, if one of your tires blows, it's a lot easier to maneuver.

And Bill, the Elkmont 26 also has 2 axles.

[Wavery]

Folks,

We had a break in the rain late yesterday, so when I went out I stopped by the church trailer and checked. The GVWR is 7000 lbs. No empty trailer weight listed. It also has drum brakes on both axles.

I figure that with the stuff we have inside plus the trailer, its weight has to be 3000 to 4000 lbs. That is right in TM range.

Tom

Tom,

You might want t consider doing yourself a big favor. The next time that you have the trailer fully loaded for camping, stop by the scales and get it weighed. I doubt very much that it will be under 4,000#.

[T and C]

Tom,

You might want t consider doing yourself a big favor. The next time that you have the trailer fully loaded for camping, stop by the scales and get it weighed. I doubt very much that it will be under 4,000#.

Wayne,

I figure you are probably correct. However, I also figure that it doesn't weigh over 4500#. I figure my tongue weight is around 550-600#.

The 3000-4000# figure was my estimate of the church trailer's weight.

Now those are only educated guesses. We'll see what the reality is when I get to a scale.

Tom

[PopBeavers]

My 2720 weighs 3,380 on the axle. That would probably put the total weight at 4,100 pounds. I travel heavy. But, any TM bigger than a 2720 would likely weigh more than 4,000 unless it was empty.

We had a blow out on the curb side tire. We did not have a control problem. We only knew we had a flat because we heard the pop. If the radio had been on we would not have heard the pop.

[Mr. Adventure]

... But, any TM bigger than a 2720 would likely weigh more than 4,000 unless it was empty...


The factory numbers for the 3023 are 50lbs heavier than the 2720SL. My scale number came in at 3940 gross (but that's with the toilet charged and only the water heater full).

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10652

[T and C]

Folks,

I posted the above theory back in October of this year. Last Sunday I had an experience that seems to me to add strength to my theory.

In November I took a 2000 mile trip towing my TM. The TM brakes have never locked up on me since I have had it. Upon returning from my trip I put the TM in the driveway and disconnected it from the TV. I did not adjust the Prodigy brake controller at all!

Sunday morning I was asked to deliver a 4 wheel trailer to my church. We rent the place we meet in, and use the trailer to carry a bunch of rolling cabinets full of sound equipment, as well as all sorts of stuff for the Children's classes, and more. I don't know the weight of the trailer empty, but it is a box trailer with two axles about 20 feet long.

Here in SoCal we are having several days of steady rain. As soon as I braked my truck/trailer combo while crossing the wet parking lot...the trailer brakes locked. The Prodigy is set on 6. Since I only had to go 3 miles or so each way on city streets at 25-35 mph, I did not adjust the Prodigy.

Every time I forgot to brake very early and softly, the trailer brakes locked up. This has never happened with the TM. Also, every time I thumbed the switch on the Prodigy, they locked up.

To me, this confirms my theory that the cause of the difficulty in locking TM brakes is in the weight that the single axle bears. Each wheel has to carry twice the weight of the wheels of a dual axle trailer of equal weight. TM's have MAJOR traction. So, the brakes are difficult to lock up.

Tom

Folks, in reading my Owner's Manual, I picked up some more confirmation of my weight/traction theory on TM's.

It says: "If towing a heavier trailer, trailer wheel lockup may not be attainable even with the GAIN setting on 10". I think that is consistent with what I wrote above.

Tom

[T and C]

Folks, in reading my Owner's Manual, I picked up some more confirmation of my weight/traction theory on TM's.

It says: "If towing a heavier trailer, trailer wheel lockup may not be attainable even with the GAIN setting on 10". I think that is consistent with what I wrote above.

Tom

Earlier in this thread I posted several times regarding my theory that the individual wheel traction is double relative to total weight of trailer if you only have one axle, as on a TM.

I mentioned several things that seemed to support my theory. However, last month reality intruded and called my theory into question.

I was driving through Nacogdoches, TX at 25mph or so. As I looked at the old buildings I failed to see that the light ahead had changed to red. Just before entering the intersection I realized the light was red and piled on the brakes. I mean PILED on the brakes. The ABS system activated and the TM brakes locked up immediately. I stopped right at the edge of the intersection and no harm was done other than to my pride.

BTW, I got the TM 2330 trailer weighed at a CAT scale. It had about 10 gallons of water in the tank plus the water heater, plus clothes and food. The trailer axle weighed in at 3440 pounds. I did not unhook to get the tongue weight, but 15% of 3440 is 516. That would give me a total weight of 3956 while on a trip. There could be more tongue weight, but I suspect that my total is pretty close.

Incidentally, we carry most of the heavy stuff in the truck. That includes tools, jacks, wooden blocks, tank tote, some clothes, ice chest, odds and ends.

Tom

[Lesherp]

When I was setting my controller before I brought it home from purchasing it I had someone at the site riding with me. I was unable to get the brakes to lock up. I ended up just setting it so it seemed like the brakes were working in slowing the trailer. He told me he liked to set them up on a gravel road.

I put self adjusting brakes on recently and wondered if this might make a deference. I had always suspected that not having them adjusted perfect could be the problem. It made no difference.

I noticed when I was on a gravel road one trip that my brakes were locking up. So now I am thinking that maybe I should set them on a gravel road. Anyone see a problem with this or is it a good idea?